Did Amanda Knox kill Meredith Kercher?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by GeoffP, Oct 4, 2011.


Is Amanda Knox guilty of the murder of Meredith Kercher?

  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
  1. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Ahh. Possibly so. And she may well have done so. Certainly later details impress us that her story changed. Those we should consider along with timeline once the disposition of the body has been established. This first element is paramount.
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  3. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    An American police force might make a suit like this to protect their reputation even if they know the suit would lose. The police might be telling the truth or might be lying. In which nation are the police not habitual liars? Knox's Parents might be telling the truth or lying. In which nation will parents not lie to protect their child's reputation?

    One thing I noticed in overturned American murder convictions is that the prosecutor, police and the family of the victim generally always stick to the belief that the conviction was correct no matter how overwhelming the evidence is that the conviction was incorrect. I am not saying that Knox has been cleared of this crime but rather that there is a psychological phenomena that resists clearing people of crimes.

    A strange thing happened in the famous OJ Simpson trial. People divided between into two groups. Those that said he was guilty and not framed and those who said he was framed and innocent. I was practically the only person saying that OJ was most likely framed and most likely guilty and whether he should be in jail or not in jail depends on our choice for the proper ratio of guilty men walking free to innocent men kept in jail. Most people refuse to accept the logically obvious fact that the American legal phrase "reasonable doubt" must necessarily translate into a ratio of guilty men walking free to innocent men kept in jail.

    We must have innocent people in jail and we must let guilty people go free. Justice can't be perfect but the judicial system likes to pretend that it can be closer to perfect than is actually possible. Doctors like to pretend that they are better at diagnosing illness than they actually are. We all have things that we prefer to deceive ourselves and others about even when we should know better.

    Why will the people who think Knox is innocent think she is innocent and why will the people who think she is guilty think she is guilty? Will the opinions be based on the facts of the case or on emotional bias? I am staying neutral because of my emotional bias against people's reluctance to accept uncertainty. The facts if I knew them probably would not create any clarity any anyway.
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  5. kira Valued Senior Member

    I have no doubt that the parent was honest. However, Knox had lied about Patrick Lumumba and was sentenced for defamation. She also lied on her whereabouts on the night of the murder (she changed her stories several times). Is it possible that she was also lying to her parent about the treatment of the police?

    In this case, I am not of the opinion if Knox is guilty or innocent. I didn't even take the poll. I was only challenging some facts. The girl has been freed, but it left me a lot of questions. If after the appeal she were sentenced for life, I would also try to challenge the "facts" that led to her guilty verdict. This was my post before she was declared to be free:

    Last edited: Oct 7, 2011
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  7. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    That was the case law enforcement was making. The media reports what they are told or what their audience wants to hear.

    To know whether the physical evidence really indicated multiple assailants requires knowing what the physical evidence was and knowing how to interpret that. Don't expect law enforcement to be truthful. Law enforcement sometimes makes a guess and then twists the evidence to fit their guess. This is the same law enforcement that would have happily pinned the crime on Lumumba if they could have.
  8. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Or she could have done the crime. Or the police could have staged the footprint. If the police suspected Knox didn't they have access to the blood and Knox's shoes? What did Knox's legal defense team say about the shoe print? Did they raise doubts about whether a body had been in the shoe when it made the print?

    I think framing of suspects is not unusual for police anywhere where crime is common. The public wants convictions.
  9. NCDane Registered Senior Member

    And I think 20 = 100% full-grown, fullfledged ADULT, even if there are jurisdictions
    where you one does not possess full adult rights at the age she was when she got
    involved in this complete trainwreck of a criminal investigation.

    AK acted stupidly because she is stupid, not because she is a child, or anywhere near
    being a child.
  10. NCDane Registered Senior Member

    Citation please.

    There have been apprx 150,000 murders in the US in this century alone,
    and I have never heard of a law enforcement libel/defamation suit against
    a private individual, and only one against a newpaper, a famous one
    (Sprague v Philadelphia Inquirer) settled in 1997.
  11. NCDane Registered Senior Member

    This is a ridiculous post.

    There is absolutely no way to pin down any data on the frequency
    of framing, so blanket denunciations have literally no emprical support,
    and reflect only the bias of the accuser, in this case an accuser who
    has a special talent for inflammatory, biased comment.

    Also, I kind of doubt Perugia, Italy is a high-crime area.
  12. kira Valued Senior Member

    I was thinking of something confused me, now that I check the timeline of the murder, I realized what confused me. First, here is the layout of the crime scene:

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    According to wiki, here is the event surrounding the murder (note: it is 7 paragraphs long, so I just make a relevant summary:

    Here is the relevant summary:
    • The house is a 2-floors house. Knox, Kercher, and 2 Italian students (Filomena and Laura) lived in the upstairs flat, while 4 Italian men (who all were out of town) lived in the downstairs flat.

    • The next afternoon after the murder, it was found that the front door was not locked, that the victim's room was locked, and the window of Filomena's room (one of the Italian girls) was broken and that Filomena's room was a mess.

    • In front of police officers, one of the flatmate's friends kicked Kercher's door open and then they all found her body.

    What confused me: what's up with the broken window, the unlocked front door and the locked victim's room door??

    If the murderer (let say it was a guy) was an intruder who has no key to enter the house, why should he broke any window when the front door was open and no one except the victim stayed in the house that night? Say, you were the murderer or thief, whatever. You wanted to intrude into a house. First you would check if any door is unlocked, right? If a door was unlocked, you would prefer to enter through the door rather than breaking a window, because breaking a window will make a noise and might waking up whoever stayed in the house and it was just unnecessary effort, right?

    Perhaps initially the front door was locked, and it was left unlocked by the murderer when he escaped from the crime scene through the front door. If that was the case, he probably needed to break the window to enter. But, what's up with the locked victim's room? If it was initially locked, he wouldn't be able to enter the victim's room and killed her. It means, he locked it after he murdered her. Why the need to lock the room?? It was said that they had to kicked the door open, so the key wasn't at the door. The murderer took the key with him...? Why?

    One more strange thing: the victim's door was said to be locked, so the murderer *who had to break the window of the house because he has no key* apparently didn't have to break the victim's door, because the door was found to be ok. Since the victim's door wasn't damaged, most likely her room initially wasn't locked, so he could enter her room without effort. Still, why the need to lock it afterwards? Even covering the body with a duvet. Strange murderer, having time to make unnecessary efforts (which means he wasn't in hurry), but has no time to remove footprints, fingerprints, etc. :shrug:

    Also, what's up with making a mess in the Italian girl's room whose window was broken? If he was initially planning to rob in the house, usually if someone caught him, he will try to escape/run. In this case, he took a risk to rape and kill a girl who probably caught him thieving. Why took the risk and did not think that there could be other person in the flat upstairs or downstairs who would caught him raping, just like the girl caught him thieving?

    If initially he knew (already observed the house) that no one was in the house except the victim, and his initial intention was to rape the girl, why broke the window in the upstairs flat, why not the downstairs flat? And why spent time to make a mess in the Italian girl room? Very confusing. Presumably when he broke the window, the victim heard it, since it was on the same floor. So, the mess he made was after the murder. So he had time to make a mess in other room, but had no time to remove the bloody footprints??
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011
  13. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    I have no idea about Perugia.

    I have talked to criminals and friends of criminals. I got the impression that they felt it is normal for other people to get convicted for crimes that they did and for them to get convicted of crimes that others did.

    There is no way to know the truth. Believe what you want to believe.
  14. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Not reading to carefully. Excuse me.

    Suppose a guy thinks the flat is empty for the night and he wants to rob the flat. Door is locked. He breaks the most convenient window to break and enter.

    The victim is either already in the flat or comes in while the criminal is looking for things to steal. The criminal/s or the dying victim locked the bedroom door.

    Where was the victim found again? Could she have been able to lock the bedroom door after the attack. It does not matter. You can lock yourself out of a bedroom. The criminal could have put that door in the lock position before exiting the room.

    The criminal then unlocks the front door and exits through the front door.
  15. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

  16. kira Valued Senior Member


    That makes sense. However, it seems it was a staged burglary, because:

    "He (Inspector Battistelli) found that a window in a room belonging to one of Miss Kercher's Italian flat mates, Filomena Romanelli, had been broken but the shattered glass lay on top of the clothes scattered on the floor.

    "Straightaway I thought it was an attempt to make it look like a burglary," Insp Battistelli told the centuries-old vaulted courtroom in Perugia.

    His suspicions increased when he discovered that a laptop, a video-camera and other valuables had not been stolen from the house. "They were all items that would have been taken in a break-in," he said."​

    In addition to that, after I read this link just now:


    I am now >75% convinced that it was Rudy Guede that killed Ms. Kercher. He made a confession that:

    • he had a consensual sex with Meredith (his DNA was also found on her body and on her tampon), and he claimed that there had been "great affection between them," but that has been denied by Kercher's friends and fellow students in Perugia.
    • he was there in the night of the murder (having a date with Meredith), he was in the bathroom while listening to ipod, but when the song was finished, he heard her scream. He then found a "brown hair Italian guy" holding a knife. He fought with him :bugeye:.

    • He never informed police (although he regret he couldn't save Meredith). In fact, a few hours later (as confirmed by witnesses), he was dancing at disco. :bugeye:

    I would have almost 90% sure it was him who killed Meredith, if at the bottom of the article I didn't read this: "Police say mobile phone records show that Guede and Knox talked to each other "several times" before the murder and after it".

    Not sure if it was accurate, since the article is from Foxnews:


    Suspect in Slaying of British Coed Seen Dancing at Disco Hours After Murder
    Monday, November 26, 2007

    Rudy Hermann Guede, the Ivory Coast immigrant suspected of sexually assaulting and killing Meredith Kercher in Perugia, went dancing at a dance club after her murder until 4:30 in the morning.

    Witnesses have testified to police that they saw Guede at the Domus disco from 2 a.m. on Friday, Nov. 2.

    Kercher was sexually assaulted and murdered on the evening of Nov. 1 at the whitewashed hillside cottage that she shared with Amanda Knox, an American student, and two female Italian students.

    Guede, who has admitted that he had sex with Kercher but claims he is not the "real killer," is being held in Germany awaiting extradition to Italy on suspicion of the murder.

    He referred to the fact that he went dancing after Kercher was killed in Internet chat with friends, intercepted by police before his capture in Germany last week.

    In testimony to German police and his Italian defense lawyers, Guede said he met Kercher shortly after 8:30 p.m. at the cottage on the night of the murder for consensual sex, but that "an Italian man" he did not know followed them in and killed her while he was in the bathroom.

    In his latest account to his lawyers, reported in Italian newspapers today, Guede -- the only one of three suspects to admit unconditionally that he was at the house on the evening of the murder -- said he and Kercher had "flirted," but that she had said they could not have sex because he did not have a condom. He then went to the toilet because he had eaten a "spicy kebab" which had given him stomach pains.

    He said that he failed to hear an intruder come into the house because he had iPod earphones in his ears playing at full volume. He had listened to three songs while in the bathroom -- lasting about 12 minutes -- and only at the end of the third song had he heard Kercher scream, he reportedly told police.

    Guede allegedly says he emerged to find a man "with brown hair and shorter than me" holding a knife. They briefly fought, and Guede suffered a cut to the palm of his right hand "as I was trying to protect myself." The assailant had uttered "racist" insults as he left, including "A black man found is a black man condemned."

    Guede reportedly said that his efforts to save Kercher failed, but he heard her dying words, which were either the initials "A.F." or the sound "af."

    La Stampa said that the latter version could be an attempt to point the finger of blame at Raffaele Sollecito, Knox's Italian boyfriend. Both are in prison on suspicion of involvement in her death. The paper said however that even if Guede was telling the truth and had not killed Kercher, it was still "very strange behavior" to go dancing at a disco and leave her to bleed to death instead of calling the police or emergency services.

    La Repubblica said police pathologists had found the "deeeply imprinted" marks of three fingers and a thumb in Kercher's throat, confirming the theory that an attempt was made to strangle her before she was killed with a knife. Her jaw bone was fractured. A witness told police that a "colored man" running from the direction of the cottage at about 10:30 p.m. barged so violently into her boyfriend that he nearly knocked him over.

    Francesco Sollecito, Raffaele Sollecito's father, a urologist from Bari in southern Italy, said that he would give police "expert evidence" tomorrow to prove that none of the knives owned by his son was compatible with the murder weapon. He said his son -- who has asked to speak to investigators this week for the first time since his arrest -- had been "consistent" in his assertions that he was not at the cottage on the night of the murder, but at his own flat.

    "The only thing he does not remember exactly is whether Amanda was with him the whole night or whether she went out and came back," Dr. Sollecito told Italian TV. He said Raffaele was confused because he had smoked cannabis that evening. "I did not know he did this, but I do know he never used hard drugs," Dr. Sollecito said. Knox has claimed that Sollecito told her he had used "cocaine and acid."

    Claudia Matteini, the investigating judge in charge of the case, held a closed hearing today to decide whether a further post-mortem examination on Kercher's body was necessary to determine the time of death more precisely. The Kercher family was represented at the hearing by Francesco Maresca, their Italian lawyer. Kercher's funeral in Britain has been delayed pending the decision.

    Guede's lawyers have disgreed over whether he had sex with Kercher, even though Guede admitted that he had, both in his initial statements and in Internet conversations intercepted by police. Investigators say his DNA was found "inside" Kercher's body and on her tampon, and that his fingerprints were on her blood-stained pillow.

    However, Nicodemo Gentile, one of his lawyers, said that the defense would provide an alternative theory of how Guede's DNA came to be on Kercher's body. He claimed there had been "great affection between them," though that has been denied by Kercher's friends and fellow students in Perugia.

    Gentile said that, according to Guede, Kercher had managed to say more than "AF" or "af" as she lay dying, "and this will form the heart of our defense." He said Guede had been in a state of "extreme confusion and psychological trauma" and had fled "instinctively." Guede is expected to be extradited to Italy in mid-December.

    According to Guede's account, Knox was not in the house, though in at least one of her many confused and contradictory statements she has admitted that she was. Police say mobile phone records show that Guede and Knox talked to each other "several times" before the murder and after it.

    In interviews over the weekend, Diya "Patrick" Lumumba, the Congolese bar owner and musician whom Knox initially accused of the murder and who has since been released from prison, said she had acted out of "revenge" because he had fired her from his bar, where she worked on two evenings a week. He said that he had offered the job to Kercher instead, and Knox had been jealous. "She wanted to be the queen bee. . .she hated anyone stealing her limelight," he said.

  17. kira Valued Senior Member

    If it's not a thread about murder, I would respond to it with another light joke, but I feel it isn't appropriate. :shrug:

    I've post too much for today. Thanks for the responses. Ciao.
  18. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

    I LOL'd

    Why was this murder so special to be in the news and stuff?
  19. NCDane Registered Senior Member


    "Criminals and friends of criminals" have given you an objective,
    accurate, unbiased account of law enforcement procedure, eh?

    That is not exactly what I meant when I said "Citation please"

    So- you are as ridiculous as ever. From what you have shown here
    you will ever be anything else.
  20. NCDane Registered Senior Member

    (post #2)
    (post #53)


    A 180 degree change of attitude! You don't see that happen too often
    in these argumentation chatrooms where hardly anyone ever wavers
    one iota from a position once taken.

    Anyway, glad to see Capt. K. has joined the crime story game and carnival
    offered by the Amanda Knox case.
  21. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Heh Heh

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011

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