Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by quantum_wave, May 20, 2011.

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Did he or didn't he?

  1. No

    75.0%
  2. Yes

    25.0%
  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    What a bizarre conclusion.

    Ethnic cleansing and genocide are not mutually exclusive. It is clear that Israel is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians since even a blind man can distinguish a Palestinian village from a Jewish settlement, but its not all they are doing. See definition of genocide.
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    How does that make it ripe for implosion? Explain the mechanism.

    Oh so Jewish Israelis are leaving Israel, well then you saying Israel Jewish population is shrinking?

    yeah that not proof of anything like the US government no longer supporting Israel. Even you have got to admit that even obama who as been the least pro-Israel president in decades still kisses there ass. In short I see not proof Israel funding from America is in danger.

    And this has to do with the price of cheese how? :shrug:
     
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Sam

    If Electric is wrong then outline the flaws in his summation. I mean that's what sciforums is here for is it not.

    No they are not but genocide does tend to amount to mass graves, not a systematic removal and dispossession of people. Or are you claiming that Israel is not interested in Palestinian land? That they are only interested in killing palestinians? Go and check any actual genocide and see if anyone was spared. Israel has palestinians within its state (Israeli-Palestinians) whom they have not killed. Why would a state with a genocidal plan spare members of said group that were living in their state? Are the Palestinians living in Israel so dense that they would not flee from a genocide as those in Cambodia, Kosovo and Croatia, Rwanda and Sudan? Why are there Palestinians going to work and school everyday if there is a genocide afoot?
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry where does it say that?

    Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

    The fact that Israelis have not succeeded is as much to blame as the Nazi failure to wipe out all the Jews.

    I already did. Its called Exodus Part Two and this will not be a mythological one.


    No just the part with education, brains and the ability to perform labour [although Palestinians and foreign labourers have long since predominated those aspects]


    Neither do I - Jewish donations to the Democratic party have risen to apparently 80% in the present so I see no reason why US aid to Israel will suffer. Thats not to say Israel will not suffer



    At some point the rat becomes too expensive to trap with cheese.
     
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    You claimed genocide and ethnic cleansing are not mutually exclusive and I said no they are not, meaning no they are not mutually exclusive. Name one genocide that didn't amount to mass graves.

    Genocide is a the destruction of the people Sam, not moving them out, stealing their land but destruction of the people themselves, meaning whole scale slaughter, this is not what's happening to Palestinians. What is happening to Palestinians is the following which is why settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes is an issue:

    Ethnic cleansing is the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

    But again I have to ask you since you failed to answer:

    Why would the journalists and academics, all the names you claim to trust refer to this situation as ethnic cleansing. Is it that you think Hedges and Pilger and Chomsky, Finkelstein etc are lying? Or maybe they're just stupid? Show of a lack of facts on their part maybe?

    I have to ask because if you are right then these fine men who've spent much of their lives going to Gaza and the occupied territories and studying the palestinian
    situation so they could bring the news and analysis to the world must be wrong. Are you saying they are wrong? They never use the term genocide. Hedges mind you was in Kosovo and has seen first hand what genocide really is so I'm sure he being a man of integrity would call it such if it were so.

    Also...

    Are you claiming that Israel is not interested in Palestinian land? That they are only interested in killing palestinians? Go and check any actual genocide and see if anyone was spared. Israel has palestinians within its state (Israeli-Palestinians) whom they have not killed. Why would a state with a genocidal plan spare members of said group that were living in their state? Are the Palestinians living in Israel so dense that they would not flee from a genocide as those in Cambodia, Kosovo and Croatia, Rwanda and Sudan? Why are there Palestinians going to work and school everyday if there is a genocide afoot?

    Please these are simple straight forward questions you can answer.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    Who have they spared? Just because they are masquerading as a democrazy, are you really fooled? As to why so and so have not addressed it as genocide, thats hardly news, when was the holocaust defined as one? Who said genocide while the Rwandans were killing each other? These things are usually retrospectively defined.

    Its called a blockade. They are under military occupation and their freedom of movement is restricted. How many Gazans could leave while they were being shelled? Do you think they want to be blockaded?
     
  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    @Sam

    There are some, what, 1,571,000 Israeli-palestinian citizens (if someone has the correct figure please post it). Some of them are even members of the Knesset. Why are they not telling the world of this genocide?

    If they were under a blockade that rendered them unable to flee and there was a genocide afoot they would all be dead Sam. The fact that they are being blocked is EXACTLY what falls into ethnic cleansing and not genocide. The very definition of genocide is to spare no one, not one member.

    Here are the two to the last stages of genocide:

    6. PREPARATION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. Members of victim groups are forced to wear identifying symbols. Their property is expropriated. They are often segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved. At this stage, a Genocide Emergency must be declared. If the political will of the great powers, regional alliances, or the U.N. Security Council can be mobilized, armed international intervention should be prepared, or heavy assistance provided to the victim group to prepare for its self-defense. Otherwise, at least humanitarian assistance should be organized by the U.N. and private relief groups for the inevitable tide of refugees to come.

    7. EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing. Sometimes the genocide results in revenge killings by groups against each other, creating the downward whirlpool-like cycle of bilateral genocide (as in Burundi). At this stage, only rapid and overwhelming armed intervention can stop genocide. Real safe areas or refugee escape corridors should be established with heavily armed international protection. (An unsafe “safe” area is worse than none at all.) The U.N. Standing High Readiness Brigade, EU Rapid Response Force, or regional forces -- should be authorized to act by the U.N. Security Council if the genocide is small. For larger interventions, a multilateral force authorized by the U.N. should intervene. If the U.N. is paralyzed, regional alliances must act. It is time to recognize that the international responsibility to protect transcends the narrow interests of individual nation states. If strong nations will not provide troops to intervene directly, they should provide the airlift, equipment, and financial means necessary for regional states to intervene.

    http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

    Israel hasn't done any of this which is how genocides are identified as genocides. If there is a genocide going on in Israel then why is it that they are not on the orgs list? As they say:

    EXTERMINATION BEGINS, AND QUICKLY BECOMES A MASS KILLING LEGALLY CALLED GENOCIDE!

    Come up with a known genocide that didn't amount to mass graves yet?

    And...

    You have failed to answer these questions:

    Why would the journalists and academics, all the names you claim to trust refer to this situation as ethnic cleansing. Is it that you think Hedges and Pilger and Chomsky, Finkelstein etc are lying? Or maybe they're just stupid? Show of a lack of facts on their part maybe? Why don't they know of this genocide?
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No they usually wait till its over before they name it. Can you name one genocide which was called a genocide while it was ongoing?
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Do not take these men to be such fools Sam, they have seen more than you have in this department. Are you so arrogant as to believe that they would not call it that if they saw this process taking place? Look at how many journalists were crying out that genocide was going to happen in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia!!! And yes they do and have named a genocide a genocide while its happening and even while it was in preparation stages. Go and read about Rwanda for christs sake!

    What you are saying doesn't even make sense from a tactical point of view. If the israeli's were really interested in genocide then what the hell would they be waiting for. They could kill the entire population in a day. Just one day!
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    Its not so easy to kill people though is it? There also seems to be some inflated opinion of Israeli intelligence [an oxymoron if you ask me]. The way they distribute their resources, the way they manage the occupation, the way they utilise their assets [like the Jordan river and the aquifers] and the way they think and plan [planting pine trees in Palestine --->see Carmel fire] does not give me a very good opinion of their national IQ. Maybe they could kill all the Palestinians but I think they are not a very brave people [after seeing the "elite" IDF crying like babies] and I don't think they will take on any action that requires them to fight people in combat. Most of their action is against people who are not armed or have puny weapons so how are they going to kill everyone without getting hurt themselves? I think self preservation is the main reason why they haven't killed all the Palestinians.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    @Sam

    Actually yes its very easy. Hutu's didn't even have guns and yet they were able to kill 500,000 in 100 days. That's with nothing but clubs and machetes and they were everyday people not military, not seasoned soldiers or people who were used to killing. Don't you think the IDF could do better in say one hour? Are you saying that the Hutu's of Africa are more brave than Israeli's who've been in war after war since the conception of their nation? I doubt that. Israel wants the land Sam, like I said if every Palestinian decided to move to Jordan the Israeli's would be asking them if they could help them pack and pay for the moving vehicles.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    No, they couldn't. They don't do hand to hand combat well. See how easily they were taken over by civilian activists who reduced them to crying.
     
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    So you're saying a nation that has bombs, white phosphorous and and sophisticated lethal weapons is incapable of a genocide? Then why are you accusing them of a genocide? If they are too cowardly to kill then how could they commit this genocide you insist is happening? You're not making sense and I think you know that.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I said they are incapable of killing everyone because they are scared and cowardly. They do try their best though, putting unarmed civilians in a cage denying them freedom, food, water, homes, fuel, bombing them from a distance, destroying their food, water, medical and sanitation supplies, raining down WMDs on them. I don't think they have abstained from a single method apart from a nuclear weapon and that probably only because it would affect them too.
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    24,132
    A curse upon you and your goats!

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    Yes, that's right, I know about those...

    *Shifty eyes*

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    Egads!

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    You mean the natives are breeding?

    The horror!

    But Israel is working to, ermmm, protect itself against that as well. The alarm has been sounded and the checkpoints are responding!

    In the West Bank, Palestinian women in labor are routinely denied access to necessary medical care by Israeli military checkpoints and roadblocks. Even women who are noticeably in need of urgent medical care are being forced to give birth in unsanitary conditions right at the military check points simply because the wait time is too long or they do not have the proper permits to pass.

    UN agencies estimate that, every year, 2,500 Palestinian women face life-threatening or fatal difficulties due to Israeli army checkpoints that prevent or dangerously delay them from reaching hospitals.

    (Source)

    Do you realise you have just proven my point about policies based on bigotry.. right?

    I mean sure, we can ignore organisations like the UN and all other human rights organisations who are reporting of the discrimination and abuse.

    You just pointed out the dangers of their breeding in Israel.

    Enough said really..

    /Insert comment about you sucking at being a human being here..

    I made a joke about something you brought into the debate. If you are going to be prickly and sensitive about your err marriage, don't bring it up in the discussion as a discussion point, because you obviously can't take any jokes about condolences to your husband. Had I known you had found someone to club over the head and drag to the altar, I'd have sent him an earmuff for a wedding present to block out your harpy like screeching.

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    See, that was a joke..

    I seem to recall you once making a comment about how you hoped my vagina rotted and fell out between my legs, before it was promptly deleted. You have made comments about my family, my profession (such as this post for example) and everything in between. As for curlers.. hahahahaaa..

    My hair all fell out with the cancer treatment, you dumbarse.

    You get as you give Lucy. You reap what you sow. And you have sowed well. So have I really. But I don't go crying to Daddy James because I get served back.. except when it's Geoff.. damn the man and his inability to keep his mouth shut about the penguins Damn him!! Now run along.. *passes you a hanky*.. go tell James about how mean and horrible I have been to you by making a joke about you getting married.. /Pat..
     
  19. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Bells

    Horror for you perhaps. Of course demographics is an issue for Israeli, they want to secure a majority jewish state so of course this is an issue, its also why they would never agree to a one state solution.

    It wasn't a joke. I didn't think it funny and I didn't bring it up to humor you but to illustrate that I can share my personal life with Sam as a woman and on those ground we get along just fine.

    I didn't cast aspersions on your family as you did with me. I kept it between us and also on the topics at hand. Its you who decided that mentioning my husband was appropriate which is why I asked you if you would like the same treatment, someone using your husband or children as a way of attacking you.

    Gets back to some of the reasons why I no longer respect you. I think anyone who reads this exchange between us will see it for what it was and who's the actual harpy, idiot, git, hypocrite etc.

    But anyway...excuse me but I'm going to ignore you now.
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    One thing which struck me in Shatz's essay was this:

    Its true, indigenous people never concern themselves with numbers because they always know where they belong.
     
  21. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    That's probably true. Like I said its one of the reasons why the Israeli's don't like the idea of a one state solution and my guess as to why they continue to push Palestinians further out while trying to keep the arab citizens they have in small numbers.
     
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Painting the big picture

    Your supposition that it now forms official policy?

    Very well: the Israeli government is encouraging Jews to marry other Jews and thereby promote the persistence of Jewish culture. Not exactly Adolf, Bells: they have a survival culture and they like it to survive. Let me put it to you this way: which negative value do you propose this corresponds to? What is the precise moral lapse of the above, specifically? It sounds about equivalent to a Mormon dating site writ larger.

    I see a couple cases. How about some statistics? How many people are legally denied the right to marry? Is such a right different or equivalent to the kind of legal impediments based on religion in the countries around them? Which standards should be enforced, and on who? Or should we focus on Israel to the exclusion of interference with legal marriage elsewhere? What is your stated objective in bringing this to the fore? What resolution are you seeking, and why?

    And you think an Arab run-state would differ from this model of your own supposition?

    AHAHAHAAAAA!

    BHWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

    Etc.
     
  23. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Geoff

    Jews have had a long history of marrying each other, way before there was an Israeli state. Fancy that.
     

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