Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by quantum_wave, May 20, 2011.

?

Did he or didn't he?

  1. No

    75.0%
  2. Yes

    25.0%
  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    Heheh

    Yeah I don't have much faith in politicians either. Still, what would a US recognition of a Palestinian state do with over 500,000 Jews in Jews only settlements in the West Bank in territories too deep inside what would be the state of Palestine? Would these Jews give up the municipal infrastructure supplied by Israel [not to mention one third of all the water in the region] in exchange for a Palestinian citizenship and the entry of Arabs in these armed settlement cities?

    Both Obama and Netanyahu are working very hard for the one state solution

    So a third intifada in September will very much play into Nutyahoo's hands. Now the question is, will the Palestinians realise this?

    Al Jazeera:

    The third intifada: Inevitable, not imminent


    Haaretz:
    A third intifada? Not necessarily

     
    Last edited: May 22, 2011
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    The answer to the OP is quite simple, NO. Obama's statments where just a repeat of previous presidential positions on Israel.
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Correct. Which only goes to show:

    "Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." - Martin Luther King

    Why do Americans hate the freedoms of other peoples?

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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    They do?

    Why do you think so?
     
  8. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    Look guys I know you must have more knwoledge on these things then me but come on I have quoted from Begin and Rabin, and the dude from the ISreali airforce who say the Egyptians were not in a position to atatck and these all came from different sources...

    You guys are good if you know more than the dudes I quoted.

    And lucy thanks for the info from Wikki, not sure whether the guy who wrote that article had more knwoledge on the subject then Begin or Rabin but anyway!!
     
  9. sofiarunner Registered Member

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    7
    Obama will not do anything, he did not even penalized Pakistan for helping out Osama, who is responsible for thousands of American deaths.
     
  10. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    6,045
    he didnt have to - the taliban did that for him.

    Tell me sofia which country has been the victim of any retaliation sicne the assasination of OBL?
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    I don't think Americans do hate the freedoms of other people. But I frankly think it is silly and disturbing that each American president feels obligated to pledge allegiance to Israel.

    But I do understand the reasons why this is so. Money speaks loudly in American politics. And Palestinians have found themselves out of favor by US media interests. Palestinians did themselves no favors with the terrorist actions conducted in their names over the course of that last several decades.

    When you over simplify the situation SAM you are doing exactly what the right wing extremists (Republicans/Tea Partiers) do in this country and else where across the globe.
     
  12. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    23,049
    Yes they should have bent over and taken it and by now, who exactly would give a shit?
     
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Pakistan, for one.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    From a different source:


    1967 - When Egypt moves 100,000 troops and 1,000 tanks across the Suez Canal into the Sinai Peninsula in May Rabin starts preparing for a war. Believing the Arabs intend an all-out attack, he advocates a preemptive blow against Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

    On 5 June, two weeks after the Egyptian troop deployment, a massive air strike is launched against the Arab nations. Rabin coordinates the following 'Six-Day War'.

    The Arab air forces are wiped out within hours. Left without any air cover the Egyptians are overwhelmed and pushed back across the Sinai and the Suez. When Jordan shells Jerusalem the Israelis take all of the city and the West Bank (Judea and Samaria). The Israelis also occupy the Golan Heights and most of the Gaza Strip.

    With its victory Israel has tripled the size of the territory under its control, united Jerusalem and increased the number of Palestinians living in Israeli-occupied land to over one million.

    About 16,000 Arabs, mostly Egyptians, and 800 Israeli soldiers have died in the war.

    In recognition of his contribution to the victory Rabin is presented with an honourary PhD in Jerusalem on 29 June. Accepting the award he says, "The soldiers cannot rejoice wholeheartedly. Their friends fell next to them bleeding to death. I also know that the terrible price the enemy paid touched many of them very deeply. On behalf of all the soldiers I proudly accept your recognition."

    Rabin does not consider the newly occupied territory to be a permanent possession of Israel. He sees it as a temporary acquisition for use in negotiations with the Arabs, arguing that Israel should withdraw from the territory as part of a general Middle East peace settlement.

    http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/rabin.html

    The Six Day War


    In 1967, in Rabin's fourth year as Chief of Staff, the Six Day War broke out. At the beginning of that year no one was thinking about war, and certainly not war with Egypt. The focus of tension was the continued clashes along the Northern border. In response to Syrian attacks, the Israeli Air Force was sent into action, and on April 7 shot down six Syrian Migs in an aerial dogfight. In response, Egypt, which had a defense pact with Syria, began to call up reserves. Egypt sent a military force into Sinai in violation of the disengagement agreements with Israel. Rabin saw this as an act of war and recommended that Israel call up its reserves. Egypt's President, Gamal Abdel Nasser, instructed the United Nations force to leave Sinai and then closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. As far as Israel was concerned it was a declaration of war. The situation continued to deteriorate rapidly and war became inevitable.

    http://www.rabincenter.org.il/English/themanandhislifework/pages/chiefofstaff.aspx

    I've checked and there is no original source for this claim except for one anti-Israeli site I came across and they didn't list any sources. The Le Monde should be archived which means I should be able to find this information fairly easy, especially since one news bite is essentially picked up by other news agencies. So please if you can find a source leave a link. The amount of Egyptian troops is never listed as less than 100,000 so it would be very strange indeed if it were remarkably less. Rabin.org should have this information on its site and yet I cannot find anything that indicates he felt there was no threat.

    As a matter of fact you have Rabin praising the feeling of joy for having attained Jerusalem. You also have him saying he never thought the territorial gain to be permanent but nothing saying there was 'no threat' along those borders.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    It was 40 years between the invasion of Palestine by European Jews [ the unilateral declaration of a Jewish state and dispossession of over 700,000 Palestinians and continued military assault on the civilian population by an invading army] and the first intifada.

    How long would Americans wait to react violently to a similar military invasion? Suicide attacks commenced sometime in the 1980s and ended soon after Palestinians understood that even blowing themselves up was not considered as legitimate resistance to military occupation - not even by the people who were funding, supporting and arming their military occupiers with WMDs, while denying the right of Palestinians to defend themselves - maybe we should take away all guns from Americans and see how they cope with a foreign invasion and the formation of a racist state which excludes inhabitants based on religious fantasies.
     
  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    I think you might have forgotten (an accident, I'm sure) that while blowing themselves up, they often blew up other people, too. I realize full well that Israel has also blown a lot of people up, but I think your point needs reminding that there were also victims of suicide bombings, even if you've forgotten who those children were.
     
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    It is one thing to attack your attacker or invader. It is quite another to attack innocent bystanders. Additionally, there were Jews living in Palestine for more than a thousand years.

    Two you are ignoring the fact that a lot of the land was sold to Jewish folks during Ottoman control of the area. And Jews were the majority population in some areas under Ottoman rule.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine#Decline_of_the_Ottoman_Empire_period
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    Why were civilians moved by Israel into the occupied territories when it is against international law? Do you know that civilians of the occupying power in the occupied territories are not covered by the Geneva convention? Why do you suppose that is? During the 40 years before the suicide bombings, how many Palestinians were killed [and ignored] by those who denied them the right of self defense? What were these foreign nationals doing residing in a territory from which the natives had been violently dispossessed? Would you move with your kids into villages attacked by drones in Afghanistan simply because it is occupied by the US?
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    What does the fact that Muslims, Christians and Jews live in Palestine have to do with European occupation of Palestinian land? Do you believe in religious entitlement of land? Are you saying that Christians can be dispossessed from the United States because they belong in Bethlehem, Palestine? Can all Christians of the world be considered as residents of Bethlehem?

    Which part of Palestine has not been invaded or attacked by the European Jews who unilaterally declared a Jewish state in their native lands?

    Do Americans who do not pursue the native American religions have ANY right to live in the United States? If the Chinese adopt the native American religions, do they have a greater right to the land of the native Americans since native Americans have lived in the United States for over 7000 years?

    I'm trying to imagine a situation where foreign religious fanatics invade the US to establish settlements of "their people" because "God gave them the land" while violently dispossessing and killing Americans and all Americans do in return is demonstrate for 40 years. Can you visualise such a scenario?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  20. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Occupied territories like Tel Aviv?
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.badil.org/en/al-majdal/item/844-zochrot-organizes-first-march-of-return-in-tel-aviv-jaffa

    From the Onion:

    In a more serious vein:

     
  22. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    6,045
    yep exactly

    for all of Pakistan's troubles i do feel sorry for them, as they get it in the neck from all angles!!



    yep that tells us what happened

    ok then check these bad boys out

    Mordechai Bentov, cabinet minister: “This story about the danger of extermination has been a complete invention and has been blown up a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territories.” (cited in Le Monde, June 3, 1972)

    Menachem Begin, leader of Gahal Party: “In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” (cited in New York Times, Aug. 21, 1982.)

    Gen. Matityahu Peled: “To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal [Israeli army].” (cited in Ha’aretz, March 19, 1972.)

    Israel precipitated the 1967 War by staging border aggressions against Syria and seizing Syrian land in the demilitarized zone between the two countries. From 1948 to 1967, Syria reported more than 1,000 armed clashes, and in a candid 1976 interview, Moshe Dayan admitted that Israel provoked 80 percent of them.

    Less than two weeks after he addressed the Security Council, Eban gave a more accurate account of Israel’s contempt for international law: “If the General Assembly were to vote by 121 votes to 1 in favor of ‘Israel’ returning to the armistice lines [pre June 1967 borders] ‘Israel’ would refuse to comply with the decision.” (New York Times, June 19, 1967.)


    All i am saying is that maybe just maybe the 1967 war was a land grab to consolidate israels position and to be able to bargain etc etc
     
  23. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    6,045
    but actually it is pointless arguing this as SAM said it is irrelelvant
     

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