Disaster in Iraq

Discussion in 'History' started by timojin, Dec 29, 2016.

  1. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    Who caused more disaster to Iraq, Saddam Husain, or the USA policy
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Saddam Hussein originally took power with the help of the US - he's part of the harm done by USA policy.
     
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  5. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    Aye... no matter how you slice it, when it comes to Iraq... we done fucked up. We done fucked up big time...
     
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  7. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    As the proverbial dog wagged by the tail, the US & 'coalition of the willing' has indeed fucked up not just Iraq but any number of other past, present, and future planned ME countries. All to the huge and essentially sole advantage of one well-positioned, long-term strategy player. Just type into your search bar 'Oded Yinon plan', and take a sickening tour of treachery and intrigue from there. And yes for those fools who genuinely think otherwise, or merely find it convenient to loudly shout otherwise, it's very much conspiracy all the way.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The US enhancement of the military power of some Muslim states east of Israel was and is in direct conflict with the Oded Yinon plan. So has been the US refusal to encourage - or even allow, in some cases - fragmentation of Muslim countries in which it has influence.

    But the US does act too much in the interests of Israel, and too little in its own or its other allies's.
     
  9. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    Which of these unspecified other states poses any strategic threat to an Israel bristling with likely several hundred thermonuclear warheads distributed among an impressive offensive triad of delivery systems? On top of a first class conventional war machine? So the MIC in US and others arms sellers makes a very nice bundle arming various states with expensive conventional toys.
    Remember how Uncle Sam built up Saddam's regime back in the 80's? A staunch ally then. Didn't save them from being later turned into a Chief Member of the Axis of Evil. With fake BS mostly dreamed up in Tel Aviv providing the convenient pretext to go in and 'finish those evil bastards'.

    Similarly for those states East of Israel now being armed. Their time for destabilization will all come. Unless Russia and Iran and maybe China can form and maintain an effective long term counter. So far though the dominoes have been falling pretty well on cue. Syria could be a watershed. We shall see.
    That much there is agreement on.
     
  10. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    [meh; don't care]
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You claimed the US was acting in the service of the Oded Yinon plan, I pointed out that quite a bit of US behavior in the region is in conflict with that plan.

    I completely agree that the US has been far too cozy and complicit with very bad stuff emerging from its expensive "ally" Israel. But I pay attention to people like oil company executives and their politician buddies, when attempting to divine the root causes of US policy in the Middle East. And by and large they aren't Jews. In fact, they tend to feature - disproportionately -my own little branch of the religious universe: Presbyterian Christianity.

    If that's the kind of stuff that floats your conspiracy boat. Protocols of the Elders indeed - Presbyterians actually have Elders.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  12. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    There are of course other interests than just Israel's being served in the chaos and bloodshed engulfing the ME:

    But the Master Plan is Israel's - or more broadly that of the Zionist tribesmen whose machinations got the modern state of Israel in place to begin with. And that plan stretches back not just to the first World Zionist congress in Basil in 1897 (where explicitly the boundaries of 'Greater Israel' were set forth), but to the very foundations of your beloved term A -fundies. Oh yeah, the Master Plan can already be seen in the so-called Divinely Inspired word of their Yahweh: Genesis 15:18-21. You won't find that in a Presbyterian Manifesto.

    And as a religion founded on principles of Divinely justified genocide: Numbers 21:27-35, 31:17-18, Deuteronomy 3:3-7, 7:12, 20:16. (even if much of the actual history is concocted BS), it takes no imagination to see there has been a long explicitly tribal-based religious precedent/pretext for the current Oded Yinon -> Ya’alon Strategy:
    https://syria360.wordpress.com/2014/11/24/from-the-yinon-plan-to-the-yaalon-strategy/

    You won't find any of that in a Presbyterian Manifesto. Not all A-fundies are equal you know. There is nothing close to a Presbyterian equivalent to AIPAC and all the Zionist rest:
    https://www.amazon.com/Big-Israel-Israels-Lobby-America/dp/0982775717/?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Exxon has a master plan of its own - and resources as significant as Israel's. Saudi Arabia has a Master Plan, as well. So does Iran. Pakistan. And Russia, for that matter - if Syria is your current focus. I would be surprised if there were no major Kurdish factions with master plans in the Middle East.
    The Book of Genesis, including that verse (which Presbyterians take as referring to themselves) is in the Presbyterian canon. And Rex Tillerson's Congregationalist canon as well.
    More incriminating documents from the Presbyterian Holy Book.
    Well then obviously your talents have not been extended to their full range - why have you overlooked the Presbyterian conspirators, neglected to identify their key organizations and centers of political power?
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I had not heard of this so I looked it up.
    I guess a two state solution will never happen.
    Alex
     
  15. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    You left out the Palestinian's 'Master Plan'. We can see how well that 'Plan' has faired. If not for Russia, Israel's MP would likely have all been done and dusted decades back. To everyone else's disadvantage. Just how close those rabid arseholes came to plunging us into a nuclear war simply to advance their interests (with admittedly some US interest involved - except it still gets back to who controlled that interest) can be seen by knowing the real history of the quietly sidelined USS Liberty incident during the 1967 Six-day war:
    http://www.mintpressnews.com/new-ev...uss-liberty-orders-kill-294-americans/198757/
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2003/10/24/israel-s-attack-on-the-liberty-revisited/
    The Liberty incident - it's total whitewashing - is proof positive of the supremacy of Israel's influence over US policy - far exceeding that of any other nation.
    I do believe Genesis and Deuteronomy etc. were well in place long, long before Presbyterians walked the earth. Hence a precedence exists.
    You know better than that. Any Presbyterian true to their actual Christian code based on NT, has nothing equivalent to such rabid teachings. Just the opposite. Hence any fellow travelers of Zionism among 'Presbyterians' are simply the proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing. And I will add many orthodox Jews reject Zionism though have a harder time justifying doing so.
    You could waste time trying to erect an equivalence to Zionist power among such, but good luck making it seem credible. Follow the money!
     
  16. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Enough with the hash-slinging - the Zionists were a fringe group of nutcases until WWII, when a mainstream Aryanist nutcase destroyed their competition and the better options.
    Do more looking. There are dozens of supposed versions of "Greater Israel", depending on which Jew-hater you're talking to at the moment.

    The fantasies of the Jew-haters are a significant obstacle to any solution, and Israel in general (with US help) has always opposed the Two State solution regardless of any "Greater Israel" bs, but reality is going to have the last word here.
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well if it is put forward by as you say " Jew-hater" folk do I need to know?
    I gather your view is there is no substance to the concept.
    Alex
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Or Jews. All modern folk are but distant heirs of those folk.

    What "precedence" did you have in mind? Explain it to Rex Tillerson.
    The Old Testament is part of the Presbyterian canon. Also the Baptist and Methodist and Congregationalist canon. And you will find millions of Protestant "Zionists" among American Protestants - with Scriptural backing in the New as well as the Old Testaments (browse Revelations).

    I have no idea what you mean by "wolves in sheep's clothing", but if you are at all implying that fundamentalist Protestants are innocent sheep you have a lot of history to catch up on.
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    There's plenty of substance to the concept, it's just not particularly relevant to anything at hand except the project of hating Jews and Israel.
     
  21. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    I already gave you links where the definitive 'Greater Israel' map was set forth back there in 1897 in that World Zionist inaugural congress.
    Zionism automatically and justifiably generates 'Jew hatred' simply by way of it's avowed aims, methods, and actual historical track record. Feel free to so much as try to punch holes in what I had to say re USS Liberty incident btw. To repeat - it's proof positive of the supremacy of Zionist/Israel control over US policy.
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for your reply.
    I don't hate Jews or Israel but if there is substance to the concept is it not relevant in understanding the ME.
    I hasten to add I know nothing of the ME and ask could the concept not be playing some part in what is going on?
    If it is real how could it not somehow figure?
    Please point me to something reliable to read because I am confused.
    Alex
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    How can someone outside the USA control policy?
    Alex
     

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