Do homeopathic remedies contain measurable quantities of the "medicine"?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by KUMAR5, Jan 15, 2022.

  1. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    I think you are mistsken in it. Many studies shown the effects effects dub standard but not nil obiou 59it is likely due to difference in nature, effects snd side present effectsbetwtwotypes. Look eg. Some 100 people were selected to observe for their menory. 50 just kept at home and 50 were sent to memorize animals present there. On back, 40 just interoreted different birds, 10 all same lions. 59 thise at home can not interoret anything. Then observer concluded since 90 interorepretstion in non consisrent it is fake or placebo wheress 10 are consitent they are true. But in actual it was not the case. 40 also observed but since those were less serious interesctions, they have not remrmbered exactly. But still it does not mean they had not interscted or they sre just at par to 50. In view of delicate, individuality and long term considerations of higher dikutions they can not come at par yo moden agents with higher n odd concentrations.
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  3. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Nope. Homeopathy is bullshit. There is nothing to debate.
    candy likes this.
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  5. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    Okay than we shall not debate esp when preception is one sided.
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member


    You're essentially telling us that if people don't wash out their bottles properly, minuscule amounts of non-water substances can be left on the glass through multiple dilution cycles. For some reason, you're also introducing the irrelevancy of using impure water in the cleaning process, thus introducing other potential contaminants.

    I don't see how any of that helps your argument. When competent chemists have diluted substances to the extent prescribed by homeopaths, tests indicate that only water is left. Yet one of the main claims of homeopathy is that the higher the dilution the more effective the remedy. That makes no scientific sense.

    But none of that really matters when we're talking about whether homeopathy works, in the sense of improving health outcomes of people who take homeopathic medicines. It doesn't matter because whenever actual homeopathic medicines - prepared by homeopaths - have been tested for efficacy by competent scientists, they have never shown effectiveness superior to that of a placebo.

    Homeopathy is bunk. Its tenets make no sense theoretically, and it has been proven not to work in practice.

    What more do you need?
    Wrong. Homeopathic remedies do not work. This has been tested by competent scientists.
    Many millions are unaware of the placebo effect, for starters. And rigorous testing trumps anecdotal evidence.

    Pfizer and Moderna don't rely on anecdotal evidence to establish the efficacy of Covid vaccines. Why can homeopathists provide nothing better than anecdotes?
    Where did you show this? Link please. Where are the relevant peer-reviewed studies?
    What does "enhanced placebo" mean? Are you just making that up?
    Fortunately, there are usually few side effects from drinking plain water. The main side effect is an emptier wallet. And the sinking feeling of having been conned if you ever come to your senses.
  8. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    OK. It's not a perception, it is an evidence thing....
  9. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    Thanks. Well explained. However sorry, I feel, in this forum we can also base some Pseudoscience.

    I am not saying unwashed bottles and contaminated water is used for subsequent dilutions but trying to indicate that it is normal dilution process of remedy preparation in distilled water. If we dilute active substances in distilled water repeatedly, it is not contamination but is dilution. If we dilute sugar water by mixing more distilled water it is just a dilution not a contamination. Moreover, Distilled water, sheded molecules of glass and atmospheric exposures can have norman mixtures common in all preparations.

    Adsorption of active substances along with other molecules (as I indicated earlier) supersede such dilution calculation of no molecule remain present. If you paint glass of a bottle from inside, you can not say, whole paint will be removed just by 12 or so dilutions. In my example of syrup bottle when I used it as water bottle even by daily through washing, smell of syrup was not gone even after 100 usages. I discussed it here or elsewhere then it was concluded that it happened due to adsorption(adsorbed molecules of syrup go on desorbing beyond Avagdro number) .

    Theoretically was yes when no molecules was logically practical but now in view of these discussions theoretically also it is possible. If I say looking at your blank laptop screen regularly increase your concentration and focusing power it can just be placebo but when I show a dot on it, it is not so. Moreover placebo effect also has some limitations. Telling plain water as sweet water by sugr dissolved in it will neither make it sweet nor even one out of 100 who will taste it will confirm it. They will simply say you are lying. Not so?

    [/quote]What more do you need?

    Wrong. Homeopathic remedies do not work. This has been tested by competent scientists.

    ??? [/quote]

    Biphasic or ever Triphasic effect

    We should not underestimate modren well educated and well inflormed pwell spread people in millions. Moreover As I indicated above placebo also has some limitations. Apart from it, mosts taking treatments are not informed( on the contrary kept secret) for what they are given treatments because most of the time treatments are indirect. So this can not support placebo. Even some animals are also given treatments.

    In view of different nature of agents than modern medicines, these can not be studied at par to modern medicines. In view of delicate, individual, long term and indirect effect from these agents effect from these can just be confirmed by interviewing people by visting homeopathic clinics who are using these since long time repeatedly.

    This will just be in interest of science or pharma industries but certainly not in interest of homeopathic community in fear of hijecking these also from then(common).

    Hope, It will help.

    Bye and good wishes.
  10. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    But they also have live evidances in millions wmodren well educated and well informed., Then so? In view of different nature of agents these can not be stidies at part to modren concentrated chemical medicines but can better be judged by such live evidances using these since long. Moreover As I indicated above placebo also has some limitations not applic able on homeopathy. You can expect even one out of 100 people to interpret plain water as sugar sweet water by tasting them and impressing them that sugar is dissoved in that. They all will just say, you are a big lier. Not so?
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

    It is placebo effect when something with no therapeutic quantities of a substance produces that effect.

    Want to test it? Simple. Prepare a "homeopathic" solution to cure some illness. Prepare an equal number of saline solutions. Give them to two large groups of people under a double blind protocol. Then see if there's any difference.

    (I mean, that's been done, and there IS no difference, but feel free to repeat it.)
  12. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    In practiice it does not happen. I am regulariky using these. Yes also modern medicinee. Even in many cases of modern medicines these can also be differentky effective in different people with sane pathology. Moreoverbit is mentioned agaist many agents that theur science or how these wirk etc could not yet be known or understood. Still those are very well in circulation and still called as scientific. But there us odd perceotion against alternative healing agents. Rationally and fir humanity all such agents ehich are existiing since long back in well distributed people in millions should be studied till either they end in themselves if fake in absolute or their science could be well understoid. Such possibilty can not be denied esp ehen science is yet non absolute and incomplete. Daily new understsndings keep on coming and rejecting old understsndings.
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Great. I am glad the placebo effect works for you.
  14. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    Whatever i am bothered about the effect lower the quantity, kesser the side effects it is still better for me. Many effects can be from non matrial. Not necessary to get the effect, heavy dose is needed. Read Cephalic phase effect where just thinking, seeing, perceiving or tasting can bring lot of changes in body.
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member


    Pseudoscience, by definition, consists of ideas that are given a veneer of scientific credibility but which are, in fact, bunk. Homeopathy is a pseudoscience. Read the wikipedia article on it, if you haven't already done so.
    Diluting "active substances" many times means that, at the end of the process we are left with zero active substance - just water. You don't seem to get that, for some reason.
    You're relying on your homopaths to be incompetent at cleaning their glassware. You hope that if they don't do it thoroughly, the odd molecule of your "active substance" might still be in the water after many dilutions.

    I don't know how you think this helps you. What makes you think a single molecule, say, of some "active substance", hidden among billions upon billions of molecules of water, could possibly have any biologically significant therapeutic effect?

    But let's just imagine that you're right, and a tiny number of molecules of your homeopathic remedy remain because the homeopath didn't follow the instructions of homeopathy correctly in preparing the "remedy". Then, that remedy can obviously be tested in a controlled trial, like any other medicine, for efficacy.

    These clinical trials have been done, using homeopathic "remedies" prepared by regular homeopaths - who may very well be as incompetent at washing out their glassware as you need them to be. But in the scientific trials, no therapeutic effect has been observed. Specifically, no homeopathic remedy has be found to perform better than a placebo.

    What this means - in case you still don't understand what a placebo is - is that we can replace the "active substances" in your homeopathic remedy by something we know has no special therapeutic value - like replacing the homeopathic thing with tiny amounts of sugar, let's say, and we see no difference between the homeopathic pseudo-medicine and the sugar water. In fact, we see no therapeutic difference between the "medicine" prepared by homeopaths according to homeopathic prescriptions, and "treatment" with pure water.

    This kind of study hasn't just be done once, but many times. All the scientific results agree: homeopathy is bunk.
    I don't understand what you're saying, but it's probably one of two things:

    1. You're saying people can't taste highly diluted sugar in water. That is correct. And the highly diluted sugar has no therapeutically significant effects on the body. Just like highly diluted homeopathic substances.
    2. You're saying that people won't report water as tasting sweeter if they are told there is sugar in the water, when in fact there is no sugar at all. That is incorrect. If you don't believe me, try testing this with 100 people. This is an example of suggestion, or the placebo effect. It is very well established in medicine.
    That is a theory about how a homeopathic remedy might conceivably have an effect. However, this has been tested, and no effect has been observed, so the theoretical guess made by homeopaths turned out to be wrong. Who'd have thought it?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Right. Nor should we underestimate the gullibility of people who believe in homeopathy.
    Nonsense. A purported homeopathic drug is a drug like any other, and it can be studied scientifically in the same way. Do you think that homeopathic drugs are magical? They are chemical substances like any other.
    Lacking any actual evidence, you guys always fall back on anecdotal evidence. This is the point at which you suddenly forget about the placebo effect, if you ever understood it in the first place.

    The anecdotal evidence cannot be trusted, for many reasons. See if you can work out why, for yourself.
  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    You say you believe in homeopathy, but here you completely go against it. It claims that the lower the quantity, the greater the effect - that will necessarily include any "side effects".

    Of course, homeopathy is bunk, so I suppose you don't have to be consistent with your faith.
  17. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    "pseudo-science definition: a system of thought or a theory that is not formed in a scientific way"

    My say is why we always need a science stamp on everything esp when it itself is not yet absolute and complete?? Can't there be many things which are not proved in scientific way but still exist and valid? We look a lion and become too much active physiologically . It is not a molecular interaction between us buit still it show effects,
    Moreover in this forum, we should be able to discuss discuss those things which are not formed in a scientific way. May it be homeopathy or other alternative system. Otherwise we could had discussed these in science forum.

    [quote[Diluting "active substances" many times means that, at the end of the process we are left with zero active substance - just water. You don't seem to get that, for some reason.[/quote]

    I think you are considering Avogadro constant for it. But when molecules of active substances are adsorbed(somewhat sick like paint) to glass bottle walls then this constant is overrided. I feel Silica in glass adsorb these molecules. Many glass items even Dimonds need commerial polishing to remove adsorbed materials after some time.

    It is not the matter of competency or incompetency but it is the part of dilution process. Even through washing of bottle' is not needed because same contents but in smaller quantity is to be used in subsequent dilutions.

    Even one molecule is important in homeopathic sense. Previously it was considered as sub-molecular but now I showing at least few molecules. Like one dot on laptop screen in important than no dot to achieve more concentration and focusing power than looking at whole screen.

    Moreover many effect can just be non materialistic i.e without molecular interactions eg we look at a lion nearby and become too much physiological active.Though it is psychological effect but is not placebo because fight or flight or stress response is triggered due to it.

    These agents are different in nature.Hass delicate, log term, natural and indirect effects with individuality and minimal side effect considerations so can not be studied at par with modern concentrated chemical medicines. Best is to take live evidences in homeopathic clinics of those who are using these since long back. Moreover modern studies do not rejest these at all but interpret as lower efficacies may be due to some methedical faults and request further studies.
  18. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    Sorry I didn,t mentioned about real effects but mentioned about side effects.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Yes. When it comes to medicines we have three categories:
    • medicines that have been proven effective in controlled scientific trials.
    • medicines that have not been tested in controlled trials.
    • medicines that have been proven ineffective in controlled trials.
    Homeopathic "alternative medicines" are in the third category. They are proven NOT to work!

    More generally, when an "alternative medicine" is proven to work in controlled trials, it is thereafter just called "medicine". The "alternative" label is usually a warning sign that there's either no proof that it works or that there's proof it doesn't work.
    No problem. We're having a useful discussion about why homeopathy is bunk right now.
    That makes no sense. A constant is a constant - not something that one can "override". I don't think you know what you're talking about. Do you actually understand measures of concentration?
    Your claim, then, is that no matter how many dilutions somebody does, or how thoroughly they clean the glassware, there will always be some molecules of active substance left - and that the fewer of them there are the more effective the homeopathic medicine is - as long as not all the molecules are removed? Is that right?

    I guess that means that the most effective dose for any homeopathic medicine would be a single molecule. Is that correct? Is that your claim?
    Sub-molecular? So you think that homeopathic remedies might be effective even if there is only a single, damaged molecule of the substance? Really?
    There's no point at all in trying to establish a mystical, magical, "non-material effect" until you have established the basics: that the medicine does something. That it is therapeutically beneficial. But, as you know, all controlled studies point to the exact opposite.
    We know what happens chemically in the body as the "fight or flight" response takes place. The chemistry and physiology is well understood. There is no analogue with homeopathic remedies, which are proven not to do anything.
    Is it your claim that homeopathic remedies are not chemicals? Are they not made of atoms like every other chemical substance? Are they magical things?
    They have been studied. They have been shown not to work. What's so hard about this for you?
    You're relying on anecdotal evidence again, which we can put down to the placebo effect.
  20. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Homeopathy is pseudoscience garbage.
  21. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

    No it is not justified to express yourself on one side. Suppose in view of lot of side effects, variations, calkung backs well studied meds, long term adverses high cost, many fiund much harmful even to fatal level eg DBi etc. Is someone say modern oharmacy to is just a science garbage, hiw garbage, how it will look to you? Do regard everyone as you do to yourselves and best is live & let live esp when sufficiency exist with you.
  22. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Homeopathy is a scam that steals money from unsuspecting people. People might use a homeopathic potion instead of a medicine that could actually help them, so it is more of a "live and let die" situation. Individuals who sell homeopathic crap are either uninformed, deluded or evil.
  23. foghorn Valued Senior Member

    A scam! a scam! Off with this man's head.↑
    And, the prince even uses it on his farms for his sheep.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022

Share This Page