Do we have freewill ? is it biblical ?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by zacariah88, Feb 22, 2023.

?

Do you believe you have freewill

  1. yes

    5 vote(s)
    45.5%
  2. no

    6 vote(s)
    54.5%
  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,089
    And yet I am still waiting for corrections where I have been wrong. You know why I have been waiting.
    Because no one has ever proved me wrong, except 3 x on some relatively minor points, but which I appreciated.

    Really, and where is that record? There is a long record of unsupported ad hominems, by some. But none of them have any corrective information that specifies where and how I am wrong.
    You can yell all you want, but if you are unable to correct me in clear and unambiguous terms, shut down on the unsupported hypocrisy, please.

    No one has a definitive theory on the subject that we are discussing. Least of all you!
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2023
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  3. zacariah88 Registered Member

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    Weasel wording no need to use those words, freewill exist and secrets exist in our persona, our real self helps us find freewill inside of us. Know our consciousness has already inside the impalnts of freedom. A machine can do it and yet we cannot grasp how life will find a way against probablities. Simply we cannot control everything in life to hold what is freewill and secrets of creation like A.I. are build find the real meanings of life.
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,960
    You have been around a long time and so have we. We know you don't have a clue. Your copy-pasting stuff does not rise to the level of warranting correction. This latest is no exception.

    As Pauli said: you are "not even wrong".

    What he means is essentially you've said "Its my opinion that 2+2=unfolding quorum sensing."

    Nonsense does not need to be shown wrong.

    Stay in school. You don't yet know what you don't know.

    And with that, you're back on ignore for me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2023
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But so far you haven't proved anything about me. And you are making the claim? So put up or shut up.

    p.s I have reported you for OT ad hominem.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,089
    That is your proof ? Care to try again?
    Pauli said that? Where did he say I said that? When did he say that?
    Fact is that statement is a lie, albeit barely cloaked in a qualification.
    Fact is your statement is "not even wrong", and I say that now, because it is true.
    Thank you. I don't need you. You are useless to me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2023
  9. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    5,331
    a) God is not enfolded in spacetime. It created spacetime, so it had to be outside to do that.
    b) That is a good question. Has God got freewill? I vote yes.
    c) Because God remembers the past because it already knows it. Since the beginning.
    d) Another good question. Good and Evil on a galactic stage. I think we struggle to answer that question on the world stage. Maybe there's a scientific reason for a supernova to occur?
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,089
    • Please post on topic.
    Actually there is a scientific explanation for all those questions. But fortunately they do not depend on the concept of a supernatural motivated but "unknowable" agency that determines its causal actions based on moral considerations which humans are not privy to.

    Unfortunately, none of the extant religious Scriptures offer any logical scientific explanations other than vague references that have been shown to be erroneous when viewed from a scientific perspective. It's all very confusing.

    The Universe is an amoral dynamical object and all natural phenomena become explicated via impersonal natural causal forces and functions. Science has discovered most of these forces and functions, but none of these forces and functions suggest the need for a motivated intelligent agency, but are perfectly explained by a demonstrable fundamental logical (mathematical) aspect to the dynamical structure and inter-related processes of relational values via consistent (mathematical) functions.

    Please understand that religious philosophies often contain wisdom and utilitarian messages, but none of these require the intervention of a supernatural agency. Human morals were invented by humans, physical functions were invented by Universal spacetime geometry.
    One might argue that human free will gave rise to morality. The cognition that symbiotic cooperation is preferable over competitive predation. But even if humans did not exist, natural selection would still logically select for those properties and traits that offered maximum survivability.

    We can already find examples of sophisticated cooperative organization in simple insects, such as bees, termites, termites and in large organic biomes such as forests, where the inhabitants all contribute to the maintenance and balance of the eco-system. We have termed that natural ordering process as "homeostasis".

    Functions of Ecosystem: Ecological succession and Homeostasis
    LAST UPDATED ON MARCH 7, 2023 BY CLEARIAS TEAM
    https://www.clearias.com/functions-of-ecosystem/#

    This phenomenon of homeostasis is a result of "natural selection" (a probabilistic mathematical function), that does not require any intervention by a motivated agency other than the natural tendency to self-organize into balanced and symmetrical patterns able to self-correction when the system becomes unbalanced.

    All these dynamical systems are a result of self-organization and maintenance of mathematical integrity. We can see this natural pattern formation in galaxies, solar systems eco- systems such as forests, meadows, oceans, lakes, rivers. Wherever you look you can see naturally formed systems that humans have learned to imitate under the illusion that creation is only possible through a motivated agency. But the universe began self-ordering, immediately after the BB and long before there was life on earth.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2023
  11. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    a) if God is enfolded in spacetime, it is not static but dynamic and changeable.
    b) if God already knows the future, can it change it?
    c) if God needs no memory how does it permanently store memory of things that no longer exist.

    I don't think you do. You express your opinion with no room for debate just scientific conjecture.

    I have no idea where you stand regarding the question of this thread, I wonder if you could encapsulate that in one sentence?
     
  12. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    2,002
    We must have free will - there have been so many responses to this post!
     
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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,089
    Do you disagree with any or all of my opinions?
    If so, I welcome different opinions from all who wish to contribute to this discussion instead of sabotaging it with useless ad hominem remarks.
    I am no smarter than everyone else. I don't really know, but as reality always seems to present several choices which are selected by different individuals, there must be some form of compatibility, where individuals may physically not be absolutely free to choose, but different choices from among several individuals on aggregate, indicating a kind of causal deterministic "flexibility"? To me, the term "probability" is not strictly compatible with "certainty". There is room (time) between the 2 concepts.

    I keep coming back to quantum and superposition which apparently resolves in random, but deterministic causal results.

    Perhaps there have been sufficient superposed causalities for triggering different action potentials in the brains of individuals?
    But still, there does not seem to be consensus agreement.....

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    Last edited: Apr 16, 2023
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Moderator note: Write4U has been warned (again) for off-topic posting.

    (Did he really expect a different result for the same behaviour, in the same thread? Who knows?)

    Due to accumulated warning points, Write4U will be taking another brief break from sciforums.
     
  15. geordief Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,144
    I may have an angle on this.

    Does the term "free will " * imply a disconnect from the events it concerns?

    Does "free will " apply to a set of contemporaneous circumstances or is it meant to apply to any and all possible circumstances?

    * as understood by anyone who responds
     
  16. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,331
    What you write seems to swerve directions to and from the topic.

    You seem to be on the fence, which is wise for a none believer. I believe in an all knowing, all powerful Light, called God. With this in mind, do we have free will? I explained in an earlier example why I believe we have no free will. We are stuck in a big baby crib(Earth), and apart from the odd trip to space we ain't going anywhere. We have no free will because God has it all pre planned, we just play our part out on this stage called the world. That is what I think.

    My answer: No freewill.

    It's admirable that you are so knowledgeable about your area, which is mainly nature I think.

    The big question is in the question, what is "Will", where does it come from from your point of view? I don't study science, I'm a philosopher.
     
  17. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,331
    Is Free Will Biblical:

    I didn't really directly answer this. My 2p...

    The classic example of free will in the bible is Adam and Eve, when they chose(after being told not to) to eat from the tree of Good and Evil.

    In my mind God knew exactly what they'd do, it is basically a story to teach kids between right and wrong, a brief story of morality. Disobeying God is bad is the lesson.

    The illusion of free will is biblical, but if free will doesn't exist outside the bible, then it's certainly not going to exist in the book.
     
  18. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    5,331
    This doesn't quite make sense but reading between the lines...

    If you had a choice to drink a glass of orange or coke, and you picked coke(correct choice

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    ), then there would be a disconnect, after the choice is made.

    I think we need to define "will". Will to me, is your soul directing your body, this is where will exists. I have no idea where it exists in nature or science.

    Going with my belief, in which I don't believe in free will to begin with, but will try to put 2p in this interesting question.

    Personally I think it applies in the context of each choice you get, one by one.
     
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,426
    You believe that this God created Adam and Eve, right?
    This God is all knowing, right?
    This God must therefore have known at the moment he created Adam and Eve that they would disobey him and eat from the tree. Right?
    This God then proceeded to punish humanity for disobeying Him - something he created them to do and knew they would do. (If you think he didn't create people to choose evil, ask yourself: could this all-powerful God has chosen to create a world in which evil did not exist? If not, then He isn't all-powerful.)
    I assume you'll also claim that this God of yours is the epitome of Goodness. Right?

    Can you see the problem, here?

    What kind of narcissistic God creates beings, knowing they will disobey him, just so that he can punish them with an afterlife eternity in Hell, to "teach them a lesson" that disobeying Him is bad? How could you possibly think such a God is a fundamentally Good being?

    Maybe you'll go on to explain that, no, this God really is Good because he sent his Son to forgive the sins of human beings. But then you're saying that this God created human beings and evil, knowing that the humans would make some bad choices, just so he could punish them and then he could feel better about himself by sending his Son to "forgive" the humans for a problem that was entirely due to God's own arbitrary decisions. Moreover, that God will still send human beings to Hell if they don't believe in his Son or accept the Son as their personal saviour, despite the Son's apparent sacrifice for the sins of the world. And meanwhile, following that sacrifice, the world is still full of sin, which any all-powerful God worth his salt could instantly erase if he wanted to.

    This God is a monster. Nobody should worship such a being.
     
  20. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    5,331
    Hi James, hope you're doing well.


    Yes.

    I wouldn't call child birth(it has created billions of happy parents) and farming(good food, most people like to eat) much punishment. When Cain kills Abel, he got punished, as an example that killing your brother is wrong. Another lesson.

    Adam & Eve, Cain and Abel are the beginnings of a code of law.

    It's presumptuous thinking you know better than God; what makes no sense to us makes sense to God. God's morality is not the same as human morality, what it says goes, we are but advanced monkeys who really have no idea as to the mind of God.

    God could of created a perfect world, but we have what we have got. I personally think all this good and evil is essential to allow your soul to experience this place called Earth. Maybe we will experience a perfect world one day(maybe we already have).

    I don't think hell exists. If it does then the people in it will be home. Terrible for good souls good for evil souls(which I don't believe in).

    God can be good or evil. Everything in existence came from God.

    Yes, just like I know my daughter will make some bad choices.

    What makes you think God "feels better about himself". My God is not a human being. God didn't make the decision it just knows the outcome. Could God prevent bad decisions? Yes, but what would we learn?

    I assume the God you refer to is the God of the bible, or Jesus himself?

    God is your best friend and your worst enemy at the same time.

    From experience James, I've concluded life is eternal, no hell or heaven, just vastness of a dimension or even this universe to explore and learn from the billions of worlds we can choose to live on, some perfect some like this mess. This mess(our world) has many lessons to learn from.

    Why do you not believe in God?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
  21. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    For me it is simply the lack of evidence for the existence of a God.
     
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  22. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    That's logical.

    You may have had supernatural experiences in your life, I don't know, but if you have you have concluded something different to what I have. Maybe due to lack of natural evidence. You're wired to be a scientist, which means that supernatural evidence is not evidence.

    I've been lucky(or unlucky) enough to have personal experiences which led me to where I am.
     
  23. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree with that assessment. I would say evidence is evidence.
     

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