Do we have soul?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Saint, Dec 28, 2013.

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  1. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    TheHun,

    So what?
    We're talking about orange juice specifically

    I said: ''The taste is the orange. One could be forgiven for thinking the ultimate purpose of the orange is its taste'', do keep up.

    Wtf are you babbling on about?
    An orange has a particular taste which we can identify as ''an orange''. Period.

    ???

    Your being paranoid.

    My point is, an O is ultimately about it's taste. It has little to no other essence, and the soul is regarded as the essential component in living things.
    I'm not being religious, I'm not trying convert you, I am simply schooling you on what is regarded as the the soul. You can either believe that there is a component like the soul, or not. I don't really give a rat's ass.

    Then wtf are you participating in this thread for?

    I know you don't think souls are real. But what makes you think I'm attempting to make them real?
    I'm explaining what the term ''soul'' means at specific level, namely the essential component.
    There is no need to invoke science, pseudo, natural, or bullshit.

    What is it that makes an orange an orange if not it's taste?

    I didn't insist that it is defined by it's taste, but understand that it is an orange by it's taste, whereas we can see a convincing model of an orange, and be convinced it is
    an orange until we taste it. In the same way we can be fooled into thinking something taste like an orange if we don't drink or eat oranges on a regular basis. But artificially flavoured orange juice
    does not taste like real orange juice, to one who is used to the real taste of orange.

    One more time, I can enjoy the taste of real orange and still NOT have an orange in hand.

    If you replicate the taste of orange, then you have no orange.

    jan.
     
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  3. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    It does answer the question.
    It may not match your own, but it is an answer nonetheless.

    The taste can be separated from the orange.
    The taste is just a subjective interpretation of chemicals, found naturally within an orange but that can be replicated exactly.
    Yes, artificial orange juice does not taste the same, because their purpose is to create something similar but far cheaper.
    But if you replicate the chemicals artificially but exactly, no matter how expensive, it will taste of orange juice.

    That we label the taste "orange" is merely for efficiency.
    We associate the taste with oranges.
    But they can be separated.
    A person with ageusia would also consider an orange utterly separate from matters of taste.
    Then you confirm it is just semantics.
    We already have words such as character, personality.
    Using the term soul is therefore confusing (due to the associated baggage) if this is all that you mean...
    I.e. The subjective view of an individual (by self or by another) that distinguishes one from another.

    Perhaps. But not if you hold there to be an objective reality.
    Yes, like "movement" is an essential component allowing a river to flow.
    All I think you are doing is perceiving an activity and assigning a descriptive noun for that activity.
    And then trying to use the noun as if describing an object.
    And then since it is not an object that can be touched or felt (cf. a table) it is given the attribute of being evidence of a non-material entity.

    Such stems from failure to identify the noun accurately as describing an activity.
    Do you think stars are conscious, then?
     
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  5. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    @The Hun

    I think this may be the kind of study you are referring to.
    It shows the percentage of people in a country who believe in God versus the country's wealth:

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    Unfortunately, the contrast isn't very good, so you have to look close to see the country names.

    There is a simple correlation for the poorest countries.
    People in countries averaging a bare subsistence wage are nearly all believers.
    As wealth increases, the graph has more of a scattergun pattern.
    Always less religious than the poorest countries, and on average increasingly non-religious as wealth increases, but varying quite widely.

    Singapore is right out on it's own as an anomaly to the general trend. Strongly religious and very wealthy.
    The religious demographics may surprise you if you don't know the country well

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Religion
     
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  7. Dazz Registered Senior Member

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    This wasn't addressed to me yes, but still this analogy is so .... irritating.

    Orange: A Citric fruit of the genus Citrus, sprung from orange trees. Can be identified by it's scent, texture, it's segmented interior or pulp, it's juicy, somewhat bittersweet and acidic flesh that gives a strong, singular stimuli to the taste buds on your tongue.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Orange

    Taste: One of the five senses, as acted by the respective organ, tongue. Resulted of an interaction between touch and smell, with the substance and your mouth, discerning or, the ability to differentiate between the tastes of sweet, salty, sour and bitter, generating a distinctive predicate called flavor.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=taste

    So to begin with, the phrase you quoted should have been:
    "What is the difference between an orange and it's flavor?"
    The difference is, let's put it this way, the orange is the porter of the quality AND it's TASTE is ONE of it's QUALITIES, and just that. The soul of the said orange would be the sum of all it's qualities and charateristics, saying that the orange IS it's own taste is like saying that i am my hairstyle (or my ability to cook,, when my hairstyle is just one of the qualities i possess, and definitely, my hairstyle (or my ability to cook), as important and central as it might be to me, is not "my soul".
    As far as this overrated allegory goes, ONE predicate can not be deemed as the SOUL of anything, when the amount of predicates together is what makes one thing a thing.
    And the concept of "soul" wouldn't exist if we had no conscience (or were sentient), so it is fair to assume that soul and conscience are one thing, and also by this, conscience is not a product of the soul (sincerely i think that the opposite is true).
     
  8. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Fraggle junior.
     
  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Baldeee,

    If separated, then we no longer have an orange.
    If the soul is separated from a human, we no longer have a human being.

    Real orange juice only comes from oranges.
    Please show where orange juice can be replicated exactly, by chemical composition without involving a real orange at some stage

    But it's not orange juice, that's my point. Plus it will taste nothing like real orange juice to an experienced palette.

    It doesn't matter what you call it, it has a distinctive taste that is recognized by everyone who eats oranges.
    I think they call oranges, apples, in China, but it makes no difference to the recognition of the taste.

    a) what is it if not it's taste?
    b) take the taste out of an orange, why would it be regarded as ''an orange''?

    Because the person has a deficiency.

    Then you're not really grasping the meaning of what I'm conveying.

    Objective reality is a part of subjective reality.
    Grass is green because we perceive it to be, green is such because we perceive it to be. We cannot describe these colors. We do not know whether
    we perceive the same thing when describing the color green.

    If you want to look at it like that, then be my guest.
    I'm merely explaining the meaning of ''soul'' from the essential point of view. The view expounded in ancient scriptures.

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    And I think you're desperately trying to convince yourself that such a thing as a ''soul'' does not exist, and doing a bad job.

    What I think or believe, is irrelevant, as I'm just giving an explanation.

    I don't think bodies are conscious unless the spiritual spark is present.
    Based on the logic, I accept that these cosmological bodies (including universe(s)) contain spiritual sparks.

    jan.
     
  10. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    13,968
    Dazz,


    You are absolutely correct.
    That is what I meant. Thanks.

    jan.
     
  11. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    You made a very good point. Not only are the poorest nations highest in religious identification, but the US stands apart in the world for having a fairly high religious population (65%) along with one of the highest GDPs (approx $48,000). If we look at the US demographic a little differently -- religion vs income -- we note that the more backward the religion, the higher it's represented in the lowest wage earners. US followers of Hinduism for example are about 5 times more likely to earn over $100,000 than to earn less than $30,000 -- whereas among the Christian fundamentalists (Protestants who don't call themselves Protestants) 30% earn under $30,000 while 20% earn more than $100,000. And this is a trend. The Hindu and Orthodox religions cluster to the top while the fundies sink to the bottom.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2009/01/30/income-distribution-within-us-religious-groups/
     
  12. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    The fundamentalist Christian churches are full of hucksters.
    They teach a crude version of Christianity which nets a lot of money for the preachers.
    Primitive Christianity is spreading to other countries, one such being Nigeria, which is leading the way by re-introducing witch burnings.


    I don't know whether their Islamic counterparts in poor Muslim countries pull similar tricks.
    I would be surprised if they do not.

    Hindus do very well financially in the UK too.
    The Catholic and Church of England schools are highly regarded, especially for junior education.
     
  13. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Dazz,

    What other qualities exist within ''the porter of the quality'' that makes it an orange as we know it?


    What ''characteristics'' does an orange have, that makes it ''an orange'', aside from flavor?

    I didn't say the taste was the soul of the orange, I said it was it's essence, the component that makes it an orange.


    We are allowed to accept or believe what is acceptable to us. I'm simply explaining what ''soul'' means.

    jan.
     
  14. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Again, ageusia sufferers would tend to disagree with you.
    Hold your nose while eating an orange and does the orange suddenly become something else because you have shut off the aroma molecules from being interpreted?

    Further, if you separate life from a human, we no longer have a human but a body.
    Ergo, life equates to soul.
    Ergo, the term soul is just semantics.
    "Natural" OJ only comes from oranges.
    Synthetic OJ can come from anyone who can synthesise it.
    Orange juice is just a combination of molecules, with limonene the one that gives it the bulk of its aroma.
    Since your definition of orange juice is that it must come from oranges, you are just begging the question.
    Further, I didn't say it can be at the moment: it is not viably economic to do so when oranges produce it so much more efficiently.
    But it is the principle.
    You are just further begging the question with such a priori assumptions.
    Orange juice is just combination of molecules.
    Much like the pigmentation in its skin, the "orange" colour.
    In your analogy is there any difference between taste and colour?
    I ask because, whereas there is no commercial need to produce synthetic OJ, colours have been created synthetically for quite a while.
    And would you argue that chemical X in an orange skin is not the same as chemical X that is produced artificially?
    There is no difference between that and the "taste" of OJ in terms of analogy.
    Mere association of the taste with a fruit, and the main source of experiences with the taste being from the fruit, does not mean that it can not be replicated perfectly, nor that the taste is the fruit / fruit is the taste.
    It is merely one component that the fruit has that enables it to be recognised as that particular fruit.
    a) it is the totality of its qualities: the taste, the look, the feel, the smell, the genetics.
    b) because it is a fruit of the genus Citrus, and species Citrus x sinensis.
    It is the fruit of a living plant and part of its means of procreation, that some animals happen to find edible.
    To think that it is its taste is rather a human-centric view.
    So what?
    If it is separate for one it can be separate for all: just hold your nose while eating it to realise this.
    I think I'm grasping what you are holding out.
    If it is not what you intended then perhaps you need to explain differently.
    I suggest you read about what is meant by objective reality, then.
    If it exists it is that which gives rise to subjective reality.
    Our interpretation of the objective reality is our subjective reality.
    So it is ludicrous to say that OR is a part of SR when it is distinct by being unclouded by perception/interpretation by the subjective.
    "Essential"?
    That's rather elitist of you, is it not?
    And you are not "merely explaining" but arguing for their position, whether it is one you actually hold or not.
    It is disingenuous to then get to a point you can't answer and go "well, I'm only repeating what I've been told!"
    It is a cop out.
    And a poor one.
    I'm waiting for a definition of soul that has any meaning, as so far the explanations seem to point to existing concepts such as personality, consciousness, life, or combination of.
    And such a term adds nothing.
    If you think it more, explain.
    As for doing a bad job... bad job at what?
    I have no need to convince myself that a "soul" does not exist.
    I await anything that can convince me that it does, however.
    Then don't start a sentence with "I think..." when you have no intention of supporting the thought and want to dismiss it as merely an explanation of someone else's view.
    So again, going back to what you think, you seem to view the relationship between "soul" and being human as one views "movement" in a flowing river.
    If you disagree, what is it that you disagree with?

    And if it is not your belief, if nothing you have so far said is what you actually believe, then what is?
    So you think a sun is conscious?
     
  15. Dazz Registered Senior Member

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    See above.
    BTW. If you can differentiate a lemon from an orange without tasting it you have your answer.

    You tried to infer with that analogy that your essence is your soul.
    Taste is equal the essence of the orange, thus, being it's soul. Hence, soul equals essence.

    The word "soul" can mean a bunch of different things that, maybe in some cases, relate in meaning, and we here and now are geting the first pictures of this issue.
     
  16. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    And, you could clear up this entire argument by providing any non-biological examples to the Psyche. I await your evidence?

    Science already understands the psyche, which is once again "the totality of the human mind, conscious, and unconscious" as being entirely biological.

    So, science awaits your evidence for the positive claim YOU made.
     
  17. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    You can try the route of the pacifist. True pacifism's leads to all good things.
     
  18. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Cite references for these scientific claims.
     
  19. laura89 Registered Member

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    In my opinion, science is impossible to prove that we human being have soul. Because they contradict.
     
  20. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    They don't contradict.
    The concept of soul, as currently undefined, is outside the remit of scientific enquiry.
    That doesn't mean it contradicts.
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Here are 3 dictionary definitions which concur with any scriptural explanation...

    Secondly, based on those definitions, it does contradict modern science as it can only explain material nature.

    jan.
     
  22. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    That does not mean they contradict, only that science has a very rigorous domain of applicability.
     
  23. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    As explained, inapplicability of a tool for examination does not equate to contradiction.
    If you intend to drive a screw into a wall, does a spanner contradict the screw?

    To contradict, the things must conclude with opposite results.
    Science has no result for something it can not examine, and thus there can be no contradiction.
    There is also no agreement.
     
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