Do you think that AI will ever feel emotions?

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by wegs, Sep 10, 2019.

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  1. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    We have a dog. Sometimes she cries out when she's playing, for fun. The coyotes in our canyon cry out all the time at night for no apparent reason. So do cats.

    You haven't had many animals, have you.
    Perhaps. Thank you for admitting that both feel pain, though. I see that as progress.
    Just like humans.
    That's akin to saying "just by virtue of a few chemicals in your brain, you think you are Conscious?"
     
    billvon, Jan 2, 2021
    #321

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  3. Steve Klinko

    Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Ok so you just want to mess around now. Have fun.
     
    Steve Klinko, Jan 2, 2021
    #322

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  5. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Figure out the most efficient trajectories. Learn to fly airplanes better. Understand language. Correct grammar. Predict weather. Paint pictures. Write stories. When installed in a robot, figure out how to walk and run.
     
    billvon, Jan 2, 2021
    #323

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  7. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I guess you don't understand AI. Good luck trying to figure it out.
     
    billvon, Jan 2, 2021
    #324
  8. Steve Klinko

    Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Neural Nets are the Pattern Matching part of those things. Those things use Neural Nets but it is not just Pattern Matching that accomplishes those things.
     
    Steve Klinko, Jan 2, 2021
    #325
  9. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    ?? You realize that neural nets do more than pattern matching, right? That's just one of the things they do. You're a neural network and you do a lot more than that. But every bit of your cognition comes from neurons, which form the neural net known as your central nervous system.
     
    billvon, Jan 2, 2021
    #326
  10. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Will AI have automatic bodily responses built in which respond to emotion (not just mimic)?

    Will there be a request for funeral for the mouse which died (or became non functional)?

    Borrowing from another thread. Will a AI which becomes detached from its charging port slither over to another AI and make a crude suggestion "Can you plug me into your port?”

    Will AI ignore evidence like the character Ham "I don't care if Evolution is proven I will still believe the bible"?

    Will AI find god? Will AI find 4,300 gods?

    Will the pope consecrate AI?

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    Michael 345, Jan 3, 2021
    #327
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  11. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Question: Does it have to?
     
    Write4U, Jan 3, 2021
    #328
  12. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    On your machine consciousness experiment page (linked), you write:

    We should look for organized patterns in the display of Bits, that could not be explained as merely Random changes.
    ​
    You don't, however, have a specification for how you would identify "organized patterns". What do you define as an "organized pattern", and how will you distinguish it from a random one?
     
    James R, Jan 3, 2021
    #329
  13. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Steve Klinko:

    How do you know?

    It sounds like a silly question, doesn't it, but I'm serious. It seems to me that you probably judge that animals experience pleasure and pain from observing what they do.

    Now, you also claim that AIs can never experience pleasure and pain, but how do you propose to go about determining whether they experience such things or not? Will you do it the same way you do it for animals, or apply a completely different set of standards?

    How can you be so sure about what is never going to happen? In 1890, lots of people would have said nobody is ever going to make a machine that can take pictures of the bones inside a human body without cutting the body open or otherwise injuring it. Those people were wrong. So were all the people who said that heavier-than-air flight would be impossible. People are wrong about what they think is impossible all the time. What makes you so sure you're right?

    That's shoddy thinking. Just because something isn't possible now, it doesn't mean it will never be possible. Think of those machines for taking pictures inside the body, again. In 1890, that was impossible. Now, there's one of those machines just down the road from you, in all likelihood.

    If you admit you don't know what pain and pleasure are, how can you be so sure that animals experience them but machines do not?

    Spontaneously?

    Okay. So what?

    If an animal has an angry look, what are the chances it is angry? Can you tell? If you can, how do you tell, other than by looking at what it is doing?

    Emergent properties are just large-scale behaviour that comes out of the interactions of many small-scale things. It's not a dream. many simple examples exist. Look at the six-fold symmetry of snowflakes, for example.

    How can you possibly be certain about that? You complain that other people have religious faith. I'd say this is your version of that.

    Who said anything about miracles?

    It's possible. Nobody understands how human conscious experience arises from the "hardware", either. What makes electronic computers any different?

    Where is the "source code" that shows where human consciousness comes from?

    I don't see what could be more relevant.

    On the one hand, you appear to agree that humans - and possibly some animals - are conscious. You're willing to accept that without ever seeing any "source code". But when it comes to electronic machines, you apply an entirely different set of standards. Why?

    They already have, in effect. Machine learning, especially using neural networks, is already producing new knowledge that humans never "designed into" the relevant systems. This is happening every day.

    Similarly, the human brain can only generate ideas that conform to the limitations of the human brain "hardware". So why do you think electronic machines are any different?
     
    James R, Jan 3, 2021
    #330
  14. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    How do you propose to tell the difference between genuinely responding to emotion, as opposed to merely mimicing it? How do you tell the difference in human beings?

    If you're serious, chances are you don't have a good idea why people hold funerals. I don't think you're serious, though.

    AIs will consider energy important, for obvious reasons, just like you do.

    Quite possibly. AI, once it really gets going, is likely to be as unpredictable and erratic as human behaviour.

    Who knows? Maybe.

    That will be a tricky conundrum for the Pope, for the same reasons you and Steve Klinko are struggling.
     
    James R, Jan 3, 2021
    #331
  15. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You do not understand the concept of emergent property.

    H2O has three emergent properties depending on temperature, i.e. Gaseous, Liquid, Solid. It can never be these things at the same time. They are "emergent" properties dependent on environmental conditions.

    Quorum Sensing is an emergent property of many hive populations, Ants, Termites, Bees, and most complex dynamic networks which are capable of activities that are impossible for any of it's parts.
    (Here we run into the age old argument of "irreducible complexity").

    Quorum Sensing
    See Bonnie Bassler
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_sensing
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
    Write4U, Jan 3, 2021
    #332
  16. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    V'ger was looking for its...maker.
     
    Write4U, Jan 3, 2021
    #333
  17. Michael 345

    Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Michael 345, Jan 3, 2021
    #334
  18. Steve Klinko

    Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    You are confusing Brain Neural Nets with Electronic Neural Nets. Two different things. Yes, Brain Neurons do a lot more than Pattern Matching, but Electronic Neural Nets only do Pattern Matching.
     
    Steve Klinko, Jan 5, 2021
    #335
  19. Steve Klinko

    Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    I have no idea what the organization would be. But I'm not going to do any in depth data analysis on the patterns of bits. It will have to be pretty obvious, like all of a sudden seeing circles, squares or spiral patterns.
     
    Steve Klinko, Jan 5, 2021
    #336
  20. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The difference is that Brain and Body Neural Nets process both chemical and electronic information, whereas Electronic Neural Nets today process only electronic information. But there should be no prohibition in adding chemical information processing to AI. Already AI is using hydraulics for movement.

    The Mars rover has a chemical laboratory on-board and "tastes" the soil.

    Curiosity and the Mars Science Laboratory Mission

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    Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSS
    https://asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astronomy/mars/missions/curiosity.asp

    I am sure the experiential differences lies in the fact that today AI are purely electro-chemical hardware, whereas living organisms are bio-chemical hardware. If anything our sensory experiences must be due to the bio-chemical neural network.

    Maybe these people are working on that.
    https://deepai.org/publication/growing-artificial-neural-networks
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
    Write4U, Jan 5, 2021
    #337
  21. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That's what you don't understand. They are both neural nets. They both work the same way.
     
    billvon, Jan 5, 2021
    #338
  22. Steve Klinko

    Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    When systems are designed using Artificial Neural Nets the Designers are using the Pattern Recognition capability and nothing else. Your misconception is thinking an ANN is anything like a Brain Neural Net. The two are like comparing apples and Bowling Balls.
     
    Steve Klinko, Jan 5, 2021
    #339
  23. DaveC426913

    DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    This is another on of those baseless, blue-sky claims.

    Show     that "Designers use the Pattern Recognition capability and nothing else."

    How do you expect to be taken seriously making such a claim?
     
    DaveC426913, Jan 5, 2021
    #340
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