Does a business owner have a right to say, "Don't come back?"

You're missing the point:
No one was talking about 'hangins' and don't shift the topic- it's about oppression.

The question is, who?

Some say that the general public will do what the law currently does. That the general public will boycott a bigoted business.

But will they really?

 

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Of course they do. If your business doesn't meet societal standards, then the state can put the smackdown on you. You don't agree with it, I do, and there's really nothing more to be said. You can't argue moral superiority because morals are subjective, not objective.

And I'm trying to get you to see that this is a gross oversimplification. Just as it would be a gross oversimplification to say that your car is the same as your body, or your house. These are not like items, and they aren't treated as such.

Or, as was the case in the US and many other free societies, the people fought--often with their lives--to rid said society of the element that fosters such bigotry. You seem to think that it'll just go away, but that's never been the case. The US has never been more inclusive or multicultural than it is today, and it's precisely because several generations of Americans have been raised in places where restaurants and public transports aren't segregated, where there aren't different sets of bathrooms for sexes and races. How many "No Irish need apply" signs have you seen recently? Because that's exactly what some poor unemployed O'Grady needs while out on the job hunt, right?

It's not optimism, as some here have said. It's naivete. You're clueless.

What you mean is we don't live in a society without rules. If you don't like it, feel free to start a revolution.

No, it just means that in some cases, those businesses will be less profitable than ones that don't. Yet discrimination isn't about intelligence or savvy business sense; it's about ignorance and fear, which is why it was so prevalent in the private sector prior to civil rights laws making such practices illegal. And just as you have your ideals about private property, American society as a whole has ideals regarding bigotry: we won't have it. We don't want someone to have to be turned away by a store owner just because of their race or religion, or some other absurd thing.

Using force is not fundamentally wrong. By that logic, it's wrong to force people into prison for committing assault. I doubt you'd agree to that, so I suggest you re-evaluate your position.

 

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It's a matter of taking rights away from one group to enhance the rights of another. That's not freedom. And yes, it is oppression. It's no different than taking away my rights as a homeowner in order to provide shelter for the homeless. Yes, we all want to help the homeless, but would we sacrifice a little of our freedom to do so?

I honestly don't know. I think many businesses already target ethnic groups here in the US. They see the potential for additional profits (Latino). My guess is that we would see establishments pop up that cater to each specific group, but I don't believe the market would be greatly segregated. Anyway, this is all speculation since we will never have an opportunity to put it into practice.

 

I understand your point and I do feel ya- I value freedom heavily.
However, what good is freedom if only some people have it?
Your analogy fails. The homeless have essentially the same rights that you do. Most of them made poor life choices and a few had fallen on plain old bad luck.
But they have the same RIGHTS that you have.
What about the actuality- not your poor analogy- where people are severely lacking in the rights that you have?
You losing the right to oppress other peoples freedom does not hold up to your analogy at all.

It's already been put into practice.

This has been pointed out again and again. Why are you ignoring recent history?
Rosa Parks was not 3,000 years ago, troop. And gay marriage is NOW.

What right do you have to tell others they cannot enjoy the rights you have? None.
That's the issue. It's not as you suggest- some people having freedom they used to have taken away to give an equal person MORE freedom.

And you said you don't know- as just was reminded to you- you do know. It's in the history books.
The question is, would we behave in our generation as they did back then?
I think it's likely. I don't know either. But frankly, I think we need more development before we're ready.

 

There are those who would argue that shelter is a fundamental right...along with food and healthcare.

Well, this is where we clash. I don't have a right to freely demand service from anyone simply because I'm white, or so I feel. If a guy wanted to open a blacks only bar, I wouldn't feel as though my liberties had been denied, because I know there are those who would welcome my business. Besides, I wouldn't feel compelled to do business there. You could apply this to any other group you choose. As far as I'm concerned, more power to them. Quite frankly, I wouldn't have any business going to an Asian, gay, or religious oriented establishment--unless, of course, I was looking for trouble.

You're talking about American history from 50 years back. Tell me, has anything changed? The more I question this, the more I believe that the markets would remain diversified for the larger part--there's too much money involved.

But that's exactly how I see it: control over your property and your business should be a fundamental right. Maybe we just disagree.

I think people have a right to believe any way they choose, and to conduct business in a manner that falls in line with those beliefs. Again, we simply disagree.

 

I'm certainly not one of them. That's a straw man, considering that no one in this topic has made any such extremist claims.

The way you worded this, I can't really disagree so easily this time.
A private club is a private club.
So if I wanted to join an all woman club, I'd just have to deal with the fact I can't. I don't want to- but if I did, I'd have to deal with the fact, I cannot.
But what happens when it's going a bit further than just a whites only bar?

Yes, to some degree- now, you tell me why things have changed.

 

I think it boils down to two propositions...

1)Do as we tell you or suffer the consequence.
2)Follow your conscience.

The first is basically a dictate that imposes a moral code on others, regardless of how they feel. The second is truly a gift from a FREE society.


As always, question authority. I can tell you that it's not always easy to do just that.

 

What if you were black or even part of a smaller less popular minority. What if you were an Arab American. Not even Muslim, just Arab, born and raised in America. An atheist, liberal Arab.

Considering the majority of Arab own businesses in America are convenience stores, used cell phone shops, or small overpriced specialty grocery markets, your choices of where to shop could become very limited very fast especially if you live in a small mostly white conservative bible belt town. I was nearly chased out of town when 911 happened because I wore a burqa at the time and people were telling me to go back to my own country. When I told them I was from Kentucky, they called me a traitor. One woman, who looked like any typical elementary school teacher, even challenged me to a fight in the walmart parking lot and accused me of trying to run her down. She crossed the lot in front of my car. I came to a stop and let her pass but she stopped in front of my car cussing me out. As I shifted the transmission into Park the car moved about an inch and she said I lunged the car at her. There were several businesses that told me to leave there. Businesses that had never treated me badly before. It was a small town. I was forced to drive 40 miles to a big city just to get groceries for my kids. And I was struggling on public assistance at the time. I couldn't afford the gas to drive like that. Once while making the 40 mile trip with my kids in the car someone tried to run me off the road. The driver of that car was wearing what appeared to be a priest uniform, black shirt with the white collar. And had a bumper sticker that said, "WWJD".

I could have sued people but I didn't have the nerve to make things worse and put my family in danger. So imagine yourself in the world you want, but as one of the hated minorities living in a small town with no means to relocate. Then think again about how your idea of freedom takes away the right to feel safe from those who would be discriminated against.

No one is talking about ancient history when we talk about discrimination. It happens all around us every day, even now. Being a white man you are just more able to ignore it because it has no obvious negative affect on you.

Edit to add:

There wouldn't likely be any Arab small businesses around either because those would be Arab business owners would likely have a hard time getting a loan to start that business from a bank owned by white males if not Jewish males. How many Arab owned banks do you know of in America?

 

I don't think the position is extremist. I actually feel badly for the homeless.

I think there are limitations on private clubs, too. I'm not certain of that, so if anybody wants to clarify the matter with an answer, it would be appreciated.

I'm not sure I follow. Explain.

That could be a number of factors. Your explanations seems to be that it was forced upon us, a government enforced program ( see how that sounds?).

 

I think many people have grown as individuals as a result of the laws currently in place. But there are many whose change is only superficial. As I stated in using my daughter as an example. Many people harbor prejudices and negative emotional responses to people who are different from themselves. It is almost instinctual that we do that. It is part of our animal nature that has not evolved away. Our primal instincts are to not trust what is different, to keep them away. But we have intelligence that tells us to ignore these instincts and act for the greater good of a village that has outgrown our minds capability to comprehend. The survival of our society as is depends on our conscious effort to suppress our animal instincts and justify why we tend to view ourselves as a higher species.

 

Most of the convenience stores around here are owned by Asians. Honestly, we don't have many Muslims in my community, and I have no idea who controls the banking industry. But to be honest, I doubt I could secure a loan for a small business.

As for your predicament, did you ever consider taking off the burka?

Yes, I wouldn't want to be an American Muslim post 9/11.

 

I'm all for a diversified society. In fact, that's what makes America great, but that shouldn't dictate individual perceptions. The right to judge for ourselves should also be an American birthright.

 

The "true gift" of FREEDOM to oppress others as one sees fit is not any sort of virtue I'd go around extolling in all-caps.

A meaningfully FREE society is one in which even the least powerful are free to go about their daily lives without undue restrictions, and be judged solely by the contents of their characters. The putative "freedom" to ride roughshod over the rights of others is no such thing: it is privilege, not "freedom."

The fact that you are having difficulties with that distinction, and shedding crocodile tears for the trampled privilege of bigoted oppressors, tells us something about your background, outlook and social station. People who do not grow up with privilege tend not to have much difficulty so distinguishing it from "freedom."

 

Idiots can have all the "perceptions" they like, so long as they don't try to violate anybody else's rights. If you are a shopkeeper, that does mean that you have to keep your bigoted opinions to yourself and not discriminate in your business dealings. If you don't like that, you can always find another line of work. Or go curl up somewhere and die: it is not society's job to help you oppress other citizens - rather the opposite.

 

Exactly- there you go- by being a bigot, you infringe on others freedom. Why couldn't I word it like that?


I'm a freakin' idiot.

 

As enforced by the law. I understand your perception.

 

No, it reads as though you'd much prefer to enforce your own perceptions on others. Can't agree with you on that position. If one chooses to be bigoted, that should be their privilege, both in personal and business dealings--my opinion

 

So I should have given up my right to dress as I wanted in order to not be threatened? Are you suggesting that I should conform the norms of society in order to have freedom to move around without threat?

 

Because it's too simple a statement. Again, it defines ones rights as being less important than those of another.