Does awareness exist?

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by Bowser, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Should we assume that our personal awareness is the ghost in the machine? Or is the machine an imagination of the ghost?
     
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  3. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    I say, neither. Neither is our personal awareness the ghost in the machine, nor is the machine an imagination of the ghost. Personal awareness is, the machine is, and, well, the ghost may be.
     
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  5. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    the 'ghost' in the machine is tis sad sad little 'enity' who has been crushed into a tiny crner, domesticated, oppressed, demoralized, dispirited, and who ironically beliefes 'he' is runnin the show!

    or is themachine an imagination of the gohst?"

    .....more like the 'ghost' IMAGINES 'he' resides IN a 'machine'!
     
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah, that IS the question, ain't it.

    Another scenario that's somewhat interesting is from a old sci-fi novel in the early 60s ...life as we know it (or think it) is actually a dream of one of the last surviving "brains" from the disintegration of the universe umpty-eleven gazillion years ago. The brain is kept alive artificially, and the only way "he" can keep from going insane is to construction complex dream-lives and try to keep them all operating in his mind.

    I just don't think we'll ever fully know whether we're real or imaginary!

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    But does it change anything one way or the other? I don't think so. If you knew for an absolute fact that ye're just someone else's dream, would it change anything for you? Would you actually do something different? If so, what? And what difference would THAT make?

    Baron Max
     
  8. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    duendy,

    Please continue...

    If your resolve is that of a robot, then be happy with your enlightment.



    Water,

    Awareness and ghost are one and the same. I referred to awareness as a ghost simply because it connot observe itself as it can any other thing--though awareness is aware of awareness itself. I'm sorry for any confusion.

    As for the sujectivity of awareness, the machine, and the world around it, would it be possible for the existence of awareness without the wrappers of the later?
     
  9. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Baron,

    How would your life change if you discovered that death is an illusion. I'm not saying that it is or isn't, but what if you understood that as truth? How would the world change if everyone believed that?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2006
  10. Gustav Banned Banned

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    they actually do (heaven, rebirth.....)
     
  11. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    So why fear death?
     
  12. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    'we' fear death because we have identified with a ghost in the machine believing rthis idea of ourselves to be alienated from body and environment

    this fear has been steadily inculcated in us by this mechanistidculture which has imposed indoctrination on us that we are individual souls bound for hell or heafven.......rthis fear can reside in peoples unconsious, even after believing they've rejected it------------and then with materialistic science we get the indoctrination we are meaningless computer-like machines, and when yer dead yer dead, thus not giving any sense of continuity between your being and environment--not only present but past and future
     
  13. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    Bowser,



    I don't know. If nothing would exist, then there would be nothing to be aware of. So the remaining question is whether awareness can be aware of itself when there is nothing else to be aware of -- and I think this is an idle question.


    But if this were so, then we'd understand it as truth that our lives are an illusion as well, not just death.

    Our understanding of the world seems to be organized by economical principles: It seems apparent to us that our life is real -- we're facing it every day, every day, so it must be real, it can't be an illusion.

    Death, on the other hand, is something not so close to us, we're not facing it every day, maybe it is an illiusion. What is more, strictly speaking, you can't be sure you will die. One's own death may be a matter of belief in one's own mortality, this belief being based on the belief that one is part of the human species, and since one has seen other beings (deemed also of the human species), die, one concludes that one is mortal (in that way) as well. But, very precisely speaking, there is no proof of one's own mortality, except one's own death -- but by then, it may be too late for one to accept it as proof ...


    I'm not sure one can fear death as such. One fears the unknown that may come with death. Or one fears that one will run out of time to do all the things one wants to do. Or, sometimes, people are afraid of death because they are actually afraid that they are living a meaningless life. Or because one has become so attached to life as one knows it, and fears that when one will lose it all when one dies.
     
  14. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Welll, many people claim to have dreams that "...seem so real..", and yet those were illusions, right? Or were they? I've had many dreams that were as "real" as anything else in my life ...what if I hadn't awakened? What if that dream were still going on in my head? Would that mean it's real ..just because I "faced it" every day?

    Oh, I disagree. We face it every single day of our lives ...someone dies somewhere, and often very close to us. Accidents and death are reported to us all the time.

    And let's not forget that when a person dies, they are no longer around us. How can we accept that disappearance as anything but ...well, gone? Old people don't just decide to move away from their loved ones and never, ever again seek communication or visits, do they?

    Baron Max
     
  15. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know. I'm just saying that if life is an illusion, then so is death (in response to Bowser's inquiry).


    That is true, but we don't experience our own death on an everyday basis. We have no first-hand experience with our own death -- except when it happens, and then, I wouldn't know what it is like ...


    Death is nothing at all. I have only slipped away into the next room. I am I, and you are you. Whatever we were to each other, that we still are.
    Call me by my old familiar name, speak to me in the easy way you always used to. Put no difference in your tone, wear no forced air of solemnity or sorrow. Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together. Play, smile, think of me, pray for me. Let my name be ever the household word that it always was, let it be spoken without effort, no trace of shadow in it.
    Life means all that it ever meant. It is the same as it ever was. There is unbroken continuity.
    Why should I be out of mind because I am out of sight?
    I am waiting for you, somewhere very near. Just around the corner. All is well.
     
  16. ellion Magician & Exorcist (93) Registered Senior Member

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    thats a nice verse water. i liked it.
     
  17. Gustav Banned Banned

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    strawman but i'll attempt an answer......despite the convictions, there are doubts as reports of life after death remains mostly anecdotal
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2006
  18. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks everyone for your thoughts. It has helped me galvanize some ideas. Gustav, I see error where you might see absolutes. When we turn concepts upside down, everything looks different. It is very difficult to turn over a large rock without some help and some leverage.
     
  19. ellion Magician & Exorcist (93) Registered Senior Member

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    bowser; would you share a summary of your conclusion?

    it just feels like you got the secret ingredient and your doing a runner with it.
     
  20. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Ellion,

    I'm still turning rocks and really am not in a position to define absolutes. I will say that being here is really very amazing. Everything that might concern me is pretty trivial in contrast. Also, I'm floating a new boat here. Sorry.

    If there is a secret ingredient, then that would be taking everything you hold as absolute in your life and flipping it upside down, then maybe discarding it altogether. The possibilities are endless.

    I can say with all honesty that I see each of you inside me. But my head is swelling and I will stop here.

    Take care

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  21. ellion Magician & Exorcist (93) Registered Senior Member

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    yes yes! i agree. chuck everything out of your boat. then get into water and flip your boat over. it comletely transform the world. lovely.

    remember though, try not to make a meal of it but if you do, Share it. we dont like secrets here.......(in the water).
     
  22. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, my soon-to-be-published book: Throwing Stones.
     
  23. ellion Magician & Exorcist (93) Registered Senior Member

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    or

    tossing your rocks!!!

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