Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Chaos theory (from Wiki)
    The theory was summarized by Edward Lorenz as:[11]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

    It seems to me that what is explained with Chaos Theory is the fundamentally mathematical essence of all universal evolutionary processes, behaviors, and self-expression.

    This is also confirmed by the best approximation of the initial chaotic conditions directly following the BB (the beginning) and their measurable mathematically evolutionary self-ordering mechanisms that resulted in our current universe with its ordered mathematical patterns at all levels of reality and by extension, metaphysically identified as symmetry, balance, harmony, fractality, etc.

    From human perspective, the dynamical mathematical universal mechanics may be considered a quasi-intelligent self-ordering system, without the need for "intent".
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    To further the concept of a mathematical universe is contained in this:
    Mathematical model (From wiki)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_model


    Seems to me that, if we are able make behavioral predictions based on relative values and mathematical functions, we can safely assume the exisence of a mathematical nature to the universal processing of relative values via mathematical functions.

    And why do we use terms like (mathematical) "governing equations" when identifying certain universal constant mathematical (predictable) behaviors?

    Governing Equations (from Wiki)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_model

    And how could we use the term "governing equations", unless we can prove their functional existence throughout the universe?
     
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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Small differences in initial conditions, such as those due to errors in measurements or due to rounding errors in numerical computation, can yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction of their behavior impossible in general.

    That seems fair enough. Small discrepancies become magnified the longer they remain in the system

    Since physics is remarkably consistent irregularities will always be present with any predictions made with discrepancies present against the reality of reality, which follows physics, where discrepancies CANNOT occur

    I really don't go with Mathematical Universe. I accept maths describes physics but in essence all that means is we have
    • been given a situation (physics - reality) and
    • have created (invented) a
    • specific language (mathematics) to
    • explain (pass on) the
    • actions of reality
    As you mentioned
    • defective measurements at the
    • beginning are the cause of
    • different outcomes at the end
    • making accurate
    • predictions impossible
    Coffee time

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    Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

    I would go with no

    For me Chaos is only a different arrangement of stuff. If you anthropomorphise stuff it will look tidy if all the suns are over there, planets this size over there, smaller ones that corner, larger other corner

    Physics, being physics, arranges stuff in physics order. IT HAS NO CHOICE

    For physics there is NO Chaos everything is in perfect order no matter how much rearranging occurs

    Place for everything and everything in its allocated place

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  7. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Since this is in the "pseudo-science" forum (under the mistaken belief that it is science) I guess anything you post is appropriate including your statement that "it seems to me".

    In reality you are (again) just making up your own meaning for words and phrases that you come across.

    There is no "quasi-intelligent" self-ordering. Chaos is just that, largely unpredictable due to complexity. There was no "chaos" at the Big Bang only to become ordered as time went on. Entropy increases as time goes on.

    "Governing equations: as a phrase doesn't have the meaning you attribute to it. I applaud your self-restraint to start a thread of this sort without actually mentioning (Tegmark).
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,592
    I agree.
    But what prevents the formation of random physical patterns and what causes the formation of self-ordering ordering patterns in physics? IMO, it is mathematical permissions and restrictions which determine the self-formation and evolution of ever more complex patterns.

    I find it really strange that we use human mathematics to describe and prove universal functions, but we resist using universal functions to prove that human mathematics are sufficient symbolic descriptions of these universal functions and dismiss it as Human Physics.

    Universal mathematics are not dependent on human symbolic mathematical representations. Human symbolic representations are dependent on universal mathematics.

    It must be a equation between physics and mathematics, else it cannot be self-ordering as we know it to happen in reality. Human mathematical descriptions are sufficient to describe Universal mathematical mechanics, else they would not be sufficiently accurate for theoretical predictive physics.

    Physics
    Yes, when we observe new mathematical values or equations in universal behaviors.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/physics.htm#:~:text=Physics

    Physics is a scientific discipline to describe the universal "values" and "functions" which cause the physical patterns to evolve from chaos. Chaos, Quantum Fields, Quantum Foam, QM, emerging particles, self-formation of dense patterns, emerging matter.

    In order to decribe these values and functions humans invented a symbolic language to describe the universal physical properties in terms of "universal relative values" and "universal mathematical functions".

    That's not Physics, that's Mathematics and mathematics work when copying universal physical phenomena in very short times and small spaces, albeit still incomplete, because the universe is huge.
    No shame there.
    Can you explain Chaos Theory in terms of physics?

    Moreover, I believe you stated the highlighted portion incorrectly. I'm sure you meant to say that
    "for the Universe there is no chaos or physics, regardless of how much rearranging occurs".
    Those are human terms and only serve to describe the universe to other humans, but don't apply to any of the universe's behaviors. The Universe does not know Physics. It processes "relative values" and "mathematical functions" in the self-formation of physical and metaphysical patterns.

    Are you saying that without humans the universe does not function mathematically? Do you reject the notion that there is a natural mathematical aspect to universal functions. Do you reject what most astronomers are "discovering" (witnessing) as the mathematical properties of the Universe?


    I am trying, but fail to see where I am wrong in entertaining the concept of a Mathematical Universe,
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,592
    Yeah, I know I must follow "convention". I appreciate your response.
    Is that intended as an argument against a mathematical universe?
    I believe the compound term I fashioned is appropriate in context of a self-ordering universe that functions in a quasi intelligent mathematical manner.
    Someone else used a similar term; "Quasi-Empirical"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-empiricism_in_mathematics#
    Then you do not understand Chaos Theory. There is a difference between complex organization and complex ordered mathematical patterns.
    In Chaos Theory the state of chaos is the most "complex organization" possible. There are no simple or complex mathematical patterns at all. The self-ordering function into "complex patterns"(emerging from chaos) is described by Chaos Theory . "Small initial changes.......etc.

    IMO, this also describes the various Quantum Field theories very nicely. After all, Chaos was the initial state of the Universe. An initial state of rapidly expanding energy, self-arranging into various Quantum Fields from which matter and form emerged. Please show me where this is wrong.
    Ok, what is the true meaning of the term "Governing Equations" ?
    How about Mario Livio ?
    Is God a Mathematician? – January 19, 2010, by Mario Livio (Author)
     
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    That is like asking what causes physics to act like physics

    Like Lego blocks (basic). You can have a bunch of blocks in a tub or arrange them into something looking like a house. Only looking like because the basic ones only have a limited range of ways to fit and a limited range of shapes / sizes

    NO

    Mathematics have no ability to give permissions. Physics does what it does and us Minions describe and project our mathematical description on said the said physical reality physics has produced

    Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

    That should not be a suprise because small changes in original conditions grow and branch leading an expanding difference between
    • expected reality which
    • would occur had
    • we began with
    • physic perfect
    • original conditions
    Perfect conditions = perfect results

    If you are not seeing perfect conditions the defect lies in whatever change the defect you started with underwent

    If you are unaware of the defect you cannot predict the outcome

    Noooooo I said, AND MEANT TO SAY

    For physics there is NO Chaos everything is in perfectorder no matter how much rearranging occurs

    Additionally ALL ACROSS THE UNIVERSE it cannot be otherwise. Not that us Minions understand all of what lies in all the nooks and crannies but we are working on it

    I haven't seen much about a Universe being run on a physics system which can operate on variable basis

    Anybody think such a Universe can run?
    Two words in the above. Scrap Two words

    know - Being non sentinent know/not know is not applicable to the Universe

    Your quote above my part answer has its toes firmly planted in metaphysical anthropomorphic Woo Woo sorry

    Run away and come back to reality when you settle back down to being clinically objectively sterile

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  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But you are missing the point. "irregularities will always be present with any predictions made with discrepancies present" describes the possible mathematical measurement flaws by humans, not the Universal functional mathematical reality itself.

    There are never any universal discrepancies, but human interpretations and predictions may be mathematically flawed. In the Universe discrepancies CANNOT occur....it functions deterministically and does not rely on human predictions based on human flawed mathematics in any way.

    Remove Human mathematical equations and the Universal mathematical functions will not be affected in any way.

    OTOH, Human mathematical science will be affected depending on our evolving knowledge of Universal "relative values" and "mathematical functions".
    Our human maths have been wrong in the past. Can't blame that on the universe.....

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  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps it is the way (words used) I wrote but your answer fits my thoughts

    We do part ways in your insistence the Universe is MATHEMATICAL

    irregularities will always be present with any predictions made with discrepancies present ✓

    describes the possible mathematical measurement flaws by human ✓

    not the Universal functional mathematical reality itself. ✓

    There are never any universal discrepancies ✓

    but human interpretations and predictions may be mathematically flawed ✓

    There are never any universal discrepancies, but human interpretations and predictions may be mathematically flawed. In the Universe discrepancies CANNOT occur....it functions deterministically and does not rely on human predictions based on human flawed mathematics in anyway. ✓

    Remove Human mathematical equations and the Universal mathematical functions will not be affected in any way. X

    THE UNIVERSE DOES NOT HAVE UNIVERSAL MATHEMATICAL FUNCTIONS

    The Universe has PHYSICS on WHICH us puny Minions project our INTERPRETATION using OUR INVENTED language (mathematics)

    OTOH, Human mathematical science will affected depending on our evolving knowledge of Universal "relative values" and "mathematical functions".

    Summary - fine tune the maths we have via more precise measurements ✓

    Can't blame that on the universe.....

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    - I don't

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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    What does the Universe know about physics that it does not know about the mathematics of physics which allow it to function as it does?
    And who or what does the arranging? Chance?
    Look deeper. Mathematics do not give or restrict permission, they are the permissions and restrictions imposed by the potentials contained in the physical patterns. 2 + 2 = 4 is mathematically allowed. 2 + 2 = 3 is not mathematically allowed.
    Physics can do things only in accordance with inherent universal mathematical laws regulating information sharing and physical interactions based on the mathematical values and the appropriate mathematical functions.
    And how do Human flawed predictions affect Universal mathematical functions?
    I suggest to give another read of Chaos Theory .
    This self-organization has been going on since the beginning and continues with or without Human symbolisms.
    I agree completely to that.
    It doesn't operate the way you present it.
    And where did I say different?
    You are misreading what I posted. All of it is scientifically defensible. Many scientist with credentials up the kazoo are subscribing to the concept of a mathematically functioning Universe . It most certainly presents an alternate theory which in theory is able to offer an ultimate TOE. and takes away a lot of the mysteriously vague physics which abound in science.
    IMO, it is Physics which is tainted by subjective dogma and has only a limited application. OTOH, Mathematical algebraic functions are the processing mechanisms of abstract relative variable values.
    Highlighted mine
    Is that an argument against the concept of a Mathematical universe? Doesn't sound very persuasive to me. Any of it...

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  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No, it does not have universal mathematical functions. The Universe itself is a product of mathematical functions. It is what allows for the continued emergence of self-organizing patterns (from prior chaotic states) of the most "subtle" (abstract) dynamical patterns (Quantum fields), to gross expression in physical Reality (Mt. Everest).

    Causal Dynamic Triangulation is a really interesting hypothesis on the fundamental fractal nature and evolution of the universal geometric fabric.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    You just anthropomorphised ( I am sensing a trend) the Universe

    Since the Universe is non sentinent your question is non applicable

    Throw them in the tub? Hopefully the child doing tidy up

    Making house? Child playing

    Arrangements, both cases, physics

    NO NO they are NOT PERMISSIONS

    Hello Anthro, you back again?
    IN MATHEMATICS . And I am sure a style of mathematics could be constructed to give

    2+2=4 as well as 1 also including 5

    Mathematics is MADE UP, we can make it do any calculation we wish

    Physics is not made up. The Mathematical language we created was made to fit reality (physics)




    Note the word in red - apparent. This (apparent) only applies to us Minions.

    Does not apply to the Universe (reminder a non sentinent Universe cannot have any concept of random / non random)

    Scrolling down I saw the word metaphysical so I am going to stop now before I start typing everything in BOLD 7 POINT CAPITALS

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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And therein lies the crux.
    IMO a "field" is a dynamical mathematical quantum (energy)pattern which is "permittive" of limited change and only within restrictions imposed by the applicable mathematical universal constants .

    The "universal mathematical functions" provide a constant guiding equation of all the physically (mathematically) allowed and disallowed natural interactions based on inherent dynamic potential (value) of the constituent parts.

    Here is link to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_(mathematics)#Properties_of_restrictions

    It addresses both universal "mathematical" restrictions and permissions inherent in the exchange of relative values and mathematical functions of the participating quantum potentials. QM ?

    One self-evident logical function is ; 2a + 2a = 4a always, the equation is an algebraically logical self-organizing and self-referential pattern, and is fundamental to the proper functional mathematical mechanisms of an exponentially expanding spacetime itself.

    If this is not true, then this universe cannot exist.
    A hierarchy of permittive and restrictive self-orderings is by definition a mathematical pattern....

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  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry please stick to one or the other mode of post

    My reading of many of your post switch between reality and soft woo woo

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  18. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Had a bit of a break so I went back to clear my 3 neurone brain Huwey Dewey and Louie

    What I take from the link - talking about MATHEMATICS

    Nowhere in the text is a switch made to reality and talk made about 'the Universe does this, does that (implied - because of Mathematics)

    If you find such a switch please point me towards same

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  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I would guess in physics this switch would be a quantum threshold event.

    Treshold
    But at macro scale there is no switch except the built-in gradual exponential evolution from simple patterns to ever more complicated patterns.
    This is evidenced by mineralogy which may eventually show us the gradual process of abiogenesis.

    There is no defined switch. The Universe is an evolved and evolving hierarchy of mathematical orders which range from the very subtle potentials to do work, to gross expression in reality. The same hierarchy exists in biology, which starts with a single cell and a few billion years later has evolved into a human organism.

    The Universe doesn't do anything. It is a mathematical construct in a continual dynamical process of alternating states of enfolded "Implicate Orders" to the unfolding of the "Explicate Orders" and vice versa.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think you understand my question. Your answer has nothing to do with the question I asked. When does the LANGUAGE change from being about MATHEMATICS to being about PHYSICS?

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  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Mathematics is the language of physical interactions.
    https://www.universetoday.com/120681/mathematics-the-beautiful-language-of-the-universe/#
     
  22. river

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    Highlighted

    Write4U ;

    The Physical Properties and the Environment of the object and/or objects , in space . Singularly and in atoms . Some have affinity some don't .
     
  23. river

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    The question is the symptom of to much quantity thought ; not enough quality thinking .
     

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