# Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Aug 7, 2020.

1. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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But you cannot start in the middle. Atoms are the smallest "physical" objects (matter), but they are not the smallest "mathematical values".
Matter is made up of sub-atomic values called "quanta" (smallest known immaterial values).

Physical Properties of objects and the Environmental conditions all have mathematical (quantum) values which determine the actual specific interaction between objects. It is these values that determine the interactive behavior between the objects, not their physical description.
Quantum state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_state#

Chirality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality

IMO, what we call Physics is a scientific discipline which uses mathematics to "describe and "formalize" the observed phenomena. The successful practical use of mathematics suggests that mathematics are "sufficient" to describe the "necessary" physical states (densities) and behaviors of physical objects.

3. ### river

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but limited to what the mathematics is based on .

Mathematics is always confined upon the knowledge given .

5. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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Is that an argument for or against? Read the question and do think this through. You'll will come to the conclusion that it is the extant mathematical values which determine the "pattern formation" of matter.

Physics describes matter, mathematics describes the type, properties, and behavior of matter.

7. ### river

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What does Quality mean to you ?

8. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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19,790
I agree.
I agree.

But that is only in reference to human discovered knowledge and understanding. If we knew all the maths of the universe we could form a TOE.
But the universe does not need to know human symbolic mathematics. The Universe uses it's own universal mathematical "relative values" and "mathematical functions".

The invention of human "symbolic" mathematics to accurately describe (symbolize) Universal values and functions is man's greatest "discovery" of a fundamental Universal Truth that the Universe is a mathematical object and can be described with the use of mathematical language.

Note that all sciences use mathematics to accurately describe "quantity" and "quality" of universal properties and dynamics.

Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
9. ### river

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TOE , theory of everything , does it include magnetism ?

The problem is , is that the mathematics is always behind . The Physical Root of the mathematics .

10. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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Yeah, that's one of those multi-definitive words.
In this context;
Quality (physics)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_(physics)#

Note: "number of frequencies and harmonics".

Potential is a measure of an object's qualities.

"Potential"
, noun

11. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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19,790
I understand what you are saying, but that is from a human perspective. We discover the mathematical values and functions which are being used in the course of universal evolutionary processes.

When our scientist observe and measure they are only discovering pre-existing mathematical behaviors.
The Universe was a mathematical object with mathematical properties and potentials from the very beginning, long before man came on the scene and started asking questions.

p.s. There are no physical roots to mathematics. There are only mathematical roots of physics. The root of mathematics is Logic.

Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
12. ### river

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The Universe was a mathematical object with mathematical properties and potentials from the very beginning, long before man came on the scene and started asking questions.

Logic does not rule the Universe .

And the Root of logic is based on physical things existing .

Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
13. ### river

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Write4U
What is the foundation of these " pre-existing mathematical behaviors " ? Why do they exist ?

14. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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Of course Logic rules everything. It is the foundation of reality itself. This excellent article describes the "function" of Logic in the Universe.
Is the Universe Logical?
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/is-the-universe-logical

15. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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It is a required property for consistent "self-organization".

Is the Universe made of Math By Max Tegmark on January 10, 2014

Last edited: Aug 10, 2020

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Reasonable

17. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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In what way?

Both Religion and Physics describe observable "irreducible complexities", i.e physical patterns.

But as demonstrated there is no such thing as irreducible complexity. Fundamentally we are looking at abstract "relational (relative) values" and mathematical (algebraic) functions, which result in the physical patterns and potentials that may be scientifically analyzed for their intrinsic values and ability to do work and can be "read" and understood by any intelligent or quasi-intelligent observer (the Mathematical Universe).

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18. ### river

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Whether irreducible complexity exists or not . Mathematics has nothing to do with the manifestation of the physical .

Give me the mathematics that can manifest a physical thing , devoid of any reference to any physical thing and the three fundamental dimensions , length , breadth and depth , manifestation of the physical .

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Pretty sure you do not know what you are talking about river...in fact positive!

Oh, and don't forget the fourth dimension...TIME!!

20. ### river

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It has never been possible .

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Mathematics is the language of physics and science generally speaking...that as far as I can see is the best simplest description.
River will not accept that because as detailed in
"The Electric.Plasma Universe: A mixture of mysticism, pseudoscience and nonsense:" thread, here.....
that hypothetical debunked nonsense, exists without any language [mathematics] therefor river 'must"deny its definition and requirement.

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Well .....

23. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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19,790
So you are still opting for Intelligent Design? If not, mathematics is the only self-organizing ( self-ordering) Universal Imperatives, or Natural Guiding Equations.
That is an irrational question. What you are asking is if the universe can manifest a physical (not mathematical) object without using mathematical values and functions.

The answer is "No", but Physics can describe these mathematical patterns (objects) with descriptive symbolic nouns; i.e. "Universe, Galaxies, Stars, Earth, Clouds, Oceans, Land, Trees", Ants, Apes, Humans, Scientists, Geometrics, Coordinates, Fields, Quanta, Energy.

Dimensions, length, breadth and depth, (and duration) are the physical manifestations (properties) of chronologically self organizing mathematical patterns into durable objects . This is also agrees with the definition and mechanics of Evolution by Natural Selection, IMO.

3.1 Euclidean Dimension
Any space that can be conceived of also has a characteristic number associated with it called a dimension.
https://hypertextbook.com/chaos/euclidean/

For some interesting visuals. https://hypertextbook.com/chaos/eyecandy/

Last edited: Aug 10, 2020