Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This may be of interest. Morphogenesis (self-organization) was first proposed by Alan Turing.



    But morphogenesis does not always yield the same result. Order may emerge from chaos but chaos can also emerge from order.

    And IMO that presents a problem for Tegmark's Mathematical Universe, which assumes a consistent deterministic mathematical order. But is that necessarily so?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2020
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  3. river

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    First highlight

    Exactly , that is the way of the Universe , it recycles . Hot to Cold , Cold to Hot .

    Second highlight

    Yes and no

    Determinism always leaves out something that goes against its determine (That is the Creativity of the Universe , something New ) . Without determinism though , no macro objects would exist . The micro , micro , would not come together to form the macro , in the first place .

    Without order the Universe would Not Exist . Without disorder the Universe would not exist ( Neither by the way in any particular order of priority ) .
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
    Dennis Tate likes this.
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  5. Dennis Tate Valued Senior Member

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    In chapter thirteen of "Stephen Hawking's Universe" entitled The Anthropic Principle.....
    Dr. Hawking postulated an infinite number of "unsuccessful universes" out there somewhere in which there was no life.......
    due to electromagnetism and / or gravity and / or weak nuclear force and / or strong nuclear force being at magnitudes........
    that were not conducive for live as we know life.

    Is this a good example of chaos theory being applied to Theoretical Physics?
     
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  7. river

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    NO .

    Chaos theory proves that the Universe has order . Which is based on the physical . Which then proves that the Universe is based on the physical not mathematics .
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The observation is based on the physical expression of order. The order itself is of a mathematical nature.
     
  9. river

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    Wrong .
     
  10. river

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    Wrong .
     
  11. river

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    Scroll posts#382 , to the newests
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Looks like we are in agreement that without an pre-existing ordering imperative, the universe could not have physically expressed as we can observe and have dedicated an entire science to.
     
  13. river

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    Order happens where it can . The pre-existing comes from thought not from energy-matter Universe .

    The Universe can exist without mathematics , and does so .

    But Mathematics helps to Understand our Universe .
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No, you are anthromorphizing.

    Inherent Values and Mathematical functions exist independent of humans. The universe was mathematically self-organizing geometry from the beginning, long before man was even a mathematical probability...

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    Shape of the universe
    And has been described and symbolized via human mathematics.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe#
     
  15. river

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    Disagree

    Any mathematics is the consequence of physical things and Life . Mathematics can not make either of them .

    Shape of the universe
    And has been described and symbolized via human mathematics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe# [/QUOTE]

    Is unknown because we do not know where the edge of the Universe is . Until then we will not know its shape .
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    We don't need to know the exact shape. Mathematics are abstract guiding imperatives, which exist outside human control or symbols.

    As Livio posits; "A circle is not a drawing on a piece of paper, but exists as an abstract mathematical objects within the spacetime fabric " We can see it everywhere as expressed by planetary orbits. Gravity causes very specific mathematics to emerge, dependent on its strength and the resulting gravitational spacetime curvatures.

    1 + 1 = 2 is an abstract equation, which exists regardless of human symbolic algebra.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-universe-made-of-math-excerpt/
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  17. river

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    Agreed

    But its not abstract to anything physical . The Physical by its very Nature , shape , will have of course mathematics drawn from it . The circle is three dimensional . Hence no longer a two dimensional mathematical imaginary shape .
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But chaos is expressed as purely energetic shapeless fields, from which patterns, or shapes with measurable mathematically ordered patterns emerge, such as the exponential function or circular shapes, as described by Chaos Theory .
    Actually an orbit is a 2 D plane, but aside from that, anything that has circular shape (sphere, globe).

    3d circular shape

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    ...............Sphere, Globe................................Toroid.............................................Cone.....................

    and the straight sided objects like Platonic solids

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    https://www.skillsyouneed.com/num/3d-shapes.html
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  19. river

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    Chaos theory is about complex systems.




    Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization. ... This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Absolutely, and those emergent patterns from the dynamical fields are not physical properties but mathematical properties, expressed as physical shapes.

    Before a shape is expressed in reality, it exist as an abstract potentiality! (Bohm)
     
  21. river

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    What dynamical fields are not From something physical ?

    Why fields ?
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    They are dynamical energetic values (quanta) fields
    Cause they are without form, except perhaps as dynamic waves, which are mathematical objects.
    https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/waves/Lesson-1/What-is-a-Wave
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  23. river

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    And where do these fields emminate from ?
     

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