Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. river

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    OK, show it.

    Prove it . Is better . I have proven that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .

    I have proven that physics are dense patterns of self-ordered mathematical relational values.
    Now you prove that mathematics are result of physical what, affinity? (your words).


    Highlighted

    Based on physical things . But you haven't still proved that mathematics creates a physical thing .
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    WTF are you on about?
    No one said any different.
    Go back read again, and drop your silly anti maths nonsense!

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    Exactly what I said...sheesh!
     
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  5. river

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    So then we agree that the physical is the essence of mathematics .
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No. OK? mathematics is the language of physics and science....Stop trying to disprove and/or discredit the science of maths [you can't] simply because it annihilates the nonsensical electric/Plasma universe hypothetical. It is indispensable in cosmology and physics and that is fact river.
     
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Physics

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  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Bingo! specifically gravity.
     
  10. river

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    Highlighted

    Not discredit mathematics , just put mathematics in its place . Behind the Physical .
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No you have not. Mathematics are fundamental to physics. Explain Physics to me without resorting to mathematics.
    That is a statement, not an argument.
    I have proved that physical things could not exist without mathematical interaction of constituent values, not physical properties.
    Physical property
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_property

    All physical, chemical, or supervenient properties, ultimately rely on their relational mathematical values and mathematical functions (processes). Any quantification or qualification of universal behaviors must be accompanied by the pertinent mathematics involved. Else, proof cannot be provided.

    Proof of physical reality is only possible via mathematics.


    There is no other way to make any sense of it at all, unless you want to resort to an even more obscure causality of a mythical Intelligent Designer, which of course is not physical at all either and does not require proof of any kind. Religion advocates for Creation of physical things from Nothing, right?
     
  12. river

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    Highlighted

    Mathematics is about Understanding Physics . Understanding of Physical Things .
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Mathematics does not need a place. It is the language in which we explain and prove our current model of the universe from the BB to what we see today. Please try and make some sense for a change.
    Again, Matter/energy do not exist apart from the spacetime from which it arose.
    GR tells us that that what we call spacetime is simply the gravitational field of the universe, and cannot exist apart from the matter/energy that warps/curves and twists that same spacetime creating the effect we see and feel as gravity...
     
  14. river

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    Highlighted

    To your last statement ;

    Disagree

    The proof of physical reality is in every day life . Measured or not .
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Gravity makes spirals? Ot is it the Fibonacci Sequence?

    The Role of Mathematics in Science
    http://chem.lapeer.org/PhysicsDocs/RoleMath.html#

    IOW, this "some basic tendency of nature" is to function in accordance with "some specific mathematical formula".
    To say; "physics" is a basic tendency of nature", seems wholly inadequate to describe how the universe functions.

    This may be due to ignorance on my part, but no one has as yet given a satisfactory counterfactual answer to the OP question, IMHO .

    I find this definition very clear and unambiguous.

    Chaos Theory
    (highlight mine)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory#

    All the physical patterns mentioned are in reality mathematical patterns.

    Chaos 1.
    Defining Chaos: Determinism, Nonlinearity and Sensitive Dependence
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chaos/#

    It seems apparent then that the universe is a dynamical self-organizing mathematical system, which produces matter in various density patterns and value potentials. If my links are reliable, I cannot find another adequate explanation of Universal properties and behaviors. The term "physics" does not tell me much other than as a generalization of a area of study.
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That is not an argument against a mathematical universe.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And it does all that in accordance to extant relational values and mathematical functions...... IMO ..

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    Schematic depiction of a function described metaphorically as a "machine" or "black box" that for each input yields a corresponding output.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(mathematics)

    Question: Does "physics" have identified functions which are not mathematical in essence?
    I found this;
    Generating function (physics)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generating_function_(physics)#

    Canonical transformation

    Modern mathematical description

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_transformation

    Still mathematical, no?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  18. river

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    True

    Its not against mathematics , of the Universe , ( which physical objects imply ) , I make it clear that physical things are the root of mathematics .
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I understand your position, but I see this not from a human perspective, but from a objective Universal pespective.

    What came first..the chicken or the egg? IMO, the egg, a single cell which was able to duplicate itself, a mathematical function.....

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  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Physics makes spirals

    Physics makes a Fibonacci Sequence

    Physics makes DNA

    Physics DOES NOT MAKE MATHEMATICS

    Mathematics is a CONCEPT and does not, repeat, does not make or organise, arrange, guide, produce ANYTHING

    Mathematics is a constructed language us Minions use to pass on various ideas about how the Universe works

    We DO NOT work out a formula and then go looking how to construct a lump of stuff to fit the formula

    We DO NOT observe formula laying around and think "That could be useful"

    We DO notice a apple falls in a certain direction. To make it easy to pass this information to others we construct a word "down" and may as well label other directions

    Coffee ☕ break. More explanation if required

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  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, gravitational forces related to angular momentum. and density waves.
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    To your whole post...irrelevant nonsense and wrong to boot.
     
  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Title of thread

    Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe
    ?


    I added the question mark to the title, only saw various statements in first post

    The statements, as far as I can tell describes observations of how us Minions shrink wrap mathematics around reality but but but SAYS NOTHING ABOUT ANY ABILITY FOR MATHEMATICS TO ORDER THE UNIVERSE


    See above your post above

    The above (quasi-intelligent) is your anthropomorphic take on the Universe and is your downfall

    Which is why we invented maths

    What your thought process sequence implies - god sat down and worked out the mathematics THEN got around to making the Universe to fit the maths

    Thought bubble - why didn't he use the metric system?

    Need more coffee ☕

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