Does time exist?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Asexperia, Sep 28, 2015.

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  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Well if time exist I would think numerous people would know what it is and be able to answer such a simple question

    I would expect to have either
    • a fairly concise much the same answer or
    • numerous different descriptions
    But 3?

    By the way I have Iggied some people who I suspect have answered so my 3 could be low

    I am not trying to define time

    Why would I try to define time? other than as being non existent?

    The suggestion was put that What is TIME would be a better topic thread than Does TIME exist thread

    I obliged. It seems however not

    Could it be possible with only 3 descriptions time is non existent hence the problem?

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    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Again, luckily, the world is not built on what people on forums suppose.
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Time exists in relativity theory, else we would not have space-time curvature, and thus no gravity.

    So, if you were to assert that time does not exist, you will be proposing an alternate theory to Einsteinian General Relativity. Are you prepared to do that?
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    As I understand time was added in the mathematical construct

    No need for me to propose a new theory

    Are you stating gravity did not exist before Einsteinian General Relativity theory was thought of?

    Explain please how thinking of Einsteinian General Relativity produced gravity

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  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Michael 345:

    Physicists typically talk about "the acceleration due to gravity", which is what a gravimeter measures.

    But "gravity" is just as abstract a concept as "time". It's strange that you believe in the one and deny the other.

    I don't have the link at hand. Did I respond to that thread?

    How about this: time is the thing that stops everything happening at once.

    Good enough?

    What are the properties of gravity? You believe in that, you tell us, and you also tell us that everything real must have properties, so what are the properties of gravity?

    As defined, it is the rate of change of displacement with respect to time.

    Your word games have failed, because you have been unable to adequately distinguish "period" from "age" from "time".

    Correct. Time is required for change.

    Your "age" or "period" appears to me to be simply a time interval. If it isn't that, you need to say what it is.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Don't know what that means. The theory is a model. The model explains nature.

    Einsteinian General Relativity posits that things happen in four-dimensional space time. Gravity is not a force that pulls things together, gravity is merely a manifestation of four dimensional curved space time.

    OK, since the prevailing theory requires space time, and you have no alternate theory, then you have little choice but to accept that our best model of the universe is that of four dimensional space time.

    No. In a Newtonian universe, both space and time were absolute, fixed and unchanging - a stationary background against which things interacted. Gravity was a force - and it happened instantly over infinite distances - no dependence on time.

    That model has been debunked by experimental evidence. Newton's fixed universe cannot explain our observations - observations that Newton didn't have access to.

    Einstein's does. And it does so with flying colours, through countless tests over almost a century. It is one of the most tested and confirmed theories in the history of science, and it has never failed.

    That doesn't mean it's "proven", it means it is - not merely the best model of our universe - it is the only serious model we have.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    How about

    Stuff which exist is always in motion (changing) therefore everything is incapable of happening at once

    AGE (frequently confused with TIME) a period between two arbitrary markers

    NOW is a moment during which the whole of the Universe is in existence.

    During NOW everything is happening - separated by distance (ie not at a single location)

    This formula illustrates two important properties of gravity. First, the mass of the bodies increases the force; the larger the mass, the larger the force. Second, the distance between the bodies will reduce the force.

    https://sciencing.com/properties-gravity-8439386.html

    An assertion but as mentioned before AGE is confused with TIME in common language

    Stuff AGEs it does not TIMEs

    Limitations of language sorry about that
    Well compare 12 inches in a foot (inches don't exist - have I got that correct?)

    How many TIMES in a year?

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  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Is same as

    which seems to be firm about gravity being a force

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  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Q: How much of that article did you read before losing interest?
    A: Less than 8 paragraphs.

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    "Gravity as a Curvature of Space-Time
    Gravity can also be understood not as a linear force, but as a curvature of space-time. Space-time is conceptualized as a mesh of three-dimensional space and time. In this mesh, space and time are not two different magnitudes, but rather a single unified entity. In the space-time, gravity can be conceptualized as a pit on the space-time; the more massive the body, the deeper the pit."
    https://sciencing.com/properties-gravity-8439386.html


    Newtonian gravity is a fine approximation for virtually all daily human experience. It's simple to talk about gravity being a force in most common applications. eg. unless actually talking about relativity, most textbooks right up through high school will treat gravity as a force. The math involved in space time curvature is overkill when it comes to falling apples and artillery.

    But a model that's 'good enough' is not sufficient when talking about things like whether time exists.

    If you want to insist that gravity is a force, then you'll also be insisting that there is no such thing as relativistic length contraction. And then you'll once again be caught between observation and a hard place.

    Gentle note: It is becoming apparent that you have a lot of reading to do on this subject before you will have an informed opinion.

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    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  13. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Michael:

    All you're doing here is playing with language. You can't stop time from existing merely by renaming it to "age" or something. Tacitly, you keep admitting that time exists, despite your silly claim to the contrary.

    Change presupposes time. Motion presupposes time.

    A period, eh? A period of what? Yes, that's right: a period of time.

    And five minutes ago is another moment where the same thing was true. And five minutes from now. All are times.

    Is it your claim, then, that nothing happened in the past, and nothing will happen in the future? Keep digging that hole.

    You are shifting the goalposts. This is not how you previously talked about "properties". I'm onto your game.

    No it isn't. Age is simply a measure of a period of time, or a time interval. If your age is 5 years, it only means that the period between your birth and the present has a duration in time of 5 years.

    People do not use the words "age" and "time" synonymously. There is no confusion. Well, you might be confused, but nobody else is.

    That's because "time" is not a verb, whereas "age" is both a noun and a verb. You're just playing games with language here, nothing more. The fact that time isn't a verb doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as you are no doubt aware. Stuff doesn't stapler, either, but that's not an argument against the existence of staplers.

    Compare it to what? An inch is not distance, any more than an hour is time. You seem to be confusing units of measures with the thing they are measures of. That's been true throughout this thread, with you.

    As many as you want (other than zero). Which, once again, only goes to show that time exists.
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    By the way, nobody asks "What age is it?" (unless they are inquiring about a time interval). They ask "What time is it?"
     
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Well many Science papers have the same silly claim

    Which is covenant method for synchronisation of events, but still a arbitrary mark

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  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    That time doesn't exist?

    Are any of these papers published in respectable peer-reviewed journals?

    Got a link?
     
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    He doesn't say that in article you linked.
     
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    So the link above does not include the screen shot below?

    Said screen shot showing

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    ?

    Is about him and contains this extract

    *****

    Timeless physicsEdit
    His 1999 book The End of Time advances timeless physics: the controversial view that time, as we perceive it, does not exist as anything other than an illusion,

    *****

    Screenshot provided on request

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  20. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    THE OBJECTIVE AND THE SUBJECTIVE

    The objective is real, relative to the object. The subjective is mental, relative to the subject.

    The objective can be:
    a) Concrete (a specific thing: table, chair, apple, house, etc).
    b) Abstract (quality considered separately that is part of the concrete: length, mass, time, volume, etc.).

    The subjective can be:
    a) Abstract (love, hate, happiness, peace, etc).
    b) Imaginary (it is unreal: dragon, mermaid, unicorn, etc).

    Time is the property we abstract from the phenomena of occurring continually. From a clock we abstract a measure, the quantity of duration. Similarly, from a body we abstract its mass or its length.
     
  21. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    THE NATURE OF TIME

    Let's also see the nature of water, light and color as a reference to the nature of time.

    - Water is the body formed by the H2O molecule.

    - Light is the electromagnetic phenomenon composed of wave-particle that makes bodies visible.

    - Color is the property (objective-concrete) that manifests in bodies when they are illuminated.

    - Time is the property (objective-abstract) that indicates the duration of things. Water, light and color are material, time is not. Time is the most tenuous property in the universe. Time increases continuously in value due to the succession of changes.
     
  22. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    HISTORICAL PAST VS METRICAL PAST

    Philochrony distinguishes between the historical past (HP) and the metric past (MP). The historical past refers to the events that have already occurred. The metric past refers to dates prior to the present. The HP is not real, but the MP is, because time is an objective-abstract property of universe.

    For example:
    1- Destruction of the Berlin Wall (11-09-1989).
    2- Attack to the Twin Towers (09-11-2001).
    3- Indonesia earthquake and tsunami (12-26-2004).

    The historical past are the events arranged chronologically and the metric past are the dates. Although the HP is not real we have evidence that it existed. Our date of birth is real and known. Our date of death is real but unknown. Death is an inevitable fact.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    We have evidence for the existence of something that isn't real?

    Okay, whatever you say...

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