Does zero exist as material, immaterial or both?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Quantum Quack, Oct 6, 2013.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    In the context of ex-nihilo, where zero or nothingness is absolute anything beyond absolute zero would be deemed to be positive. [ there is no negative ]
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Yes !

    Universe - universe = 0

    Zero therefore validates the reality of the universe, due to the fact that when you subtract the universe from the universe there is absolutely nothing leftover.
     
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  5. river

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    but we are not discussing ex-nihilo in terms of measurement but in existence

    ex-nihilo is absolute nothingness in all dimensions
     
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  7. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    and vice versa... if nothing is present no qualities will be found.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    The step from something [1] to nothing [0] is a bit more significant than a step from something [1] to something [2] don't you agree?
     
  9. river

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    for infinity
     
  10. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Positive numbers indicate something that is existent, possibly physically, but not necessarily.
    In the sum 3-1=2, the numbers do not have to signify anything real.
    Zero indicates something which does not exist, and negative numbers indicate something which is absent.
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Say for example we have a basket.
    Example Cases:
    1] 3 oranges in the basket [ actual ]
    2] 0 in the basket [actual]
    3] -3 oranges [ on order] in the basket. [non-actual, possible future ]

    The basket must have the vacant space to store oranges.
    Is that vacant space something or nothing?

    Argument:

    If there was nil vacant space in the basket no oranges could be stored there so the vacant space must be something...
    Yet the vacant space although absolutely necessary is immaterial. [ even though it has volume ]

    I would contend that the vacant space is immaterial yet has a material effect. [in that it provides room for the oranges to be stored]

    However possibly I am mixing "categories" or "context"?
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I don't think you can have -3 oranges. That doesn't make sense as a concept.

    The temperature outside can, however, actually be -3 degrees Celcius.

    It's just a matter of how you define "nothing", isn't it? If you include "empty space" in "nothing", then that vacant space in your basket is nothing. On the other hand, you might want to exclude empty space from your definition of nothing, in which case empty space is something.

    Ok, so it looks like you don't regard empty space as nothing. There's no problem with that, is there?

    So you conclude that you don't need something to be material for it to be something.

    My mental image of a rose is something, I'd say, but it isn't material.

    My mental image of a rose has a material effect on me, too.

    I don't know.
     
  13. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    @QQ
    Minus 3 oranges does not represent empty space, it represents minus oranges.
    If you have three oranges and subtract three, then you have zero oranges.
    But if you have no oranges and you subtract three, you have minus three oranges.

    It is hard to do that with real oranges, but with numbers, no problem.
    It is not entirely theoretical.
    The minus three could represent oranges paid for, but which have not arrived.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I am not sure what the freezing point of water has to do with the OP...but I am sure you do.



    I don't conclude anything , I am only contending or proposing that the vacant space, in the example given, may be or is both material and immaterial

    Yet it takes effort [energy] to create that image of a rose in your head, yes?



    I am glad that it does...

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    me neither!

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  15. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    That would ruin the oranges.
    Keep them inside.
     
  16. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Here's an interesting fact.

    What is the sum of all numbers? Infinity right? But check this out:


    (1 + -1) + (2 + -2) + (3 + -3)....= 0 + 0 + 0...= 0
     
  17. hansda Valued Senior Member

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    I think to find a definitive answer for your question, the term "zero" should be defined first.

    If it(zero) is defined as ' absence of something' - then "zero" exists.

    If "zero" is defined as 'nothing' or 'absence of everything' - then it is beyond our perception. 'What is beyond our perception', i don't think if 'non-existence' is the right term to describe that. If it is within our perception, then it exists.
     
  18. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Sum of all positive numbers.
    Even that's not right.
    What is the sum of all positive numbers plus 1?

    Take the film "The Sum of All Fears"
    CIA analyst Jack Ryan must thwart the plans of a terrorist faction that threatens to induce a catastrophic conflict between the United States and Russia's newly elected president by detonating a nuclear weapon at a football game in Baltimore. (from IMDB)

    Title is wrong. Why?
    If a bomb was simultaneously detonated at a New York Jets game that would be even more fearful surely?
     
  19. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Infinity + 1
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  20. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Now you are being silly, aren't you?
     
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    "But I can't, there is no space inside!" [ an effect caused by an immaterial thing (vacant space) being absently absent

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    ]

    "There is a door blocking my path!" [ a lack of nothing...ironically the absence of absence ] :m:
     
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    (+)infinite energy + (-)infinite energy = zero (point) energy.
    A straight forward and real paradox for sure. Just the same as ex-nihilo is a paradox.

    For something that is "immaterial" it certainly has a heap of potential. ( like..uhmm... a universe or two!

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    )

    "So the next time you get an empty package in the mail, you'll know what to do with it!"

    Zen~ism - "How can a bowl with nothing in it, be considered as empty?"
     
  23. arauca Banned Banned

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    Zero is a " I don't know " There is a positive I don't know and a negative
     

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