Donald The Progressive

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Michael, Aug 28, 2015.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Listening to the Respectable Media the last couple of days (trapped by inlaws): it has become standard practice to parrot the wingnut Trump/Sanders equivalency meme.

    Sanders is yoked to Trump during presentations focused on Trump, in the arguments and even the syntax, far more often than he is mentioned, quoted, or his positions discussed, alone. And no Trump discussion is complete without an attempt to draw a similarity or equivalency comparison with Sanders - after, of course, some attention and publicity for Trump alone.

    Because Both Sides, apparently.
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    To funny.
    Not only would Bernie say anything to get elected - HE DOES.

    I've heard Bernie outright LIE* to get elected.

    One (of many examples) is his outright lie / meme / BS-story regarding those poor "Chinese Slave Labors" (which he deceitfully qualifies with 'virtual'). Virtual Slaves (you know, like being a virtual virgin, or a virtual liar, a virtual killer, virtually married, etc...). Never mind that Chinese line up for blocks to get these jobs. Never mind that the working conditions in electronics factories om China is much safer and much better than working the land (and pays better). Never mind that the suicide rate in these Chinese factories is LOWER than their equivalent in the USA. Oh, and never mind that Americans WANT to buy made-in-China products. We want a PS4 made in China for $350. Not made in Japan for $500. Or made in America for $1600. And, in a free society we should be allowed to buy said PS4.

    Of course, "Progressives" like Bernie want to remove that freedom.
    Progressives like Bernie pretend to care about humanity - but they don't. What they care about is power. They get that power by giving the functionally illiterate labor-cogs a politically correct excuse to (virtual slaves, currency manipulation, etc...) stop other free Americans from trading with China (lifting 100s of millions of humans out of poverty) so that we're forced to buy Made-In-America. Thus, demagogues like Bernie pander to the most base-instinct of humans often encompassed in the word "America".

    If Bernie (or Trump) is elected it will doom millions of real humans to lives of poverty.
    That's how it works.

    Bernie knows this, thus we can only assume he doesn't give two shits about "Progress" and helping humanity. If he did, he's support increasing free trade.


    Side Note:
    Here's a few things the Progressives gave us:
    #1. The Central Bank: That caused the GFC and then bailed out the richest most corrupt bankers who profited up until it occurred.
    #2. The minimum wage: Designed to prevent poor Blacks from competing against poor Whites (Blacks were the Chinese of the early 1900s). Oh, and (thanks to #1 Central Bank inflation) the minimum wage is now relatively lower than BEFORE it started.
    #3. Welfare Ghettos: The minimum wage (#2) put many Blacks out of work, thus giving rise to Government funded welfare ghettos (cost half a trillion a year now).
    #4. Drug Laws: You know, for the good of society, giving rise to the Police State that can literally Civil Forfeit your private property in a manner no different from a Highway Robber of the middle ages.


    Yeah, vote Trump or Bernie - they're both the same.


    Note:
    * Lie: as in the proposition, not the sentence structure.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Forbes: Donald Trump's Threat To Force Ford To Scrap Expansion Plan In Mexico

    Of course he will.
    He's a Progressive.
    Forcing Americans into having LESS choice in terms of which *insert item* we can buy is a lesson right out of the Progressive playbook. Which is why a grocery store in America cita 1985 had 80,000 items and a grocery store the USSR had around 120 (most of which you weren't allowed to purchase).

    Socialism, the most dangerous oxymoron ever invented.
     
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  7. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    right bernie would lie to get elected. and you just lie because you can. the centraal bank didn't create the melt down. lack of regulation did which damn well know. and drug laws came from right wing conservatives the exact opposite of progressives. 2 and 3 came about of a combination of market forces interacting with progressive ideas. but mostly do to the greed that you defend. as usual its you whose lying. when are you going to stop with jack boot intellectual thuggery and grow up
     
  8. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    You haven't said what Bernie Sanders lied about. Chinese workers are virtually slave labor, and the only reason Chinese people are vulnerable to it is because the alternative is being a dirt poor farmer who makes virtually no money. You can't exploit people that have a better alternative. So yes, we should not have the freedom to exploit people who have zero say in how the country is run. Our president's job is not to help the Chinese, but to look after the welfare of Americans.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Here's what's happening. Bernie is telling YOU exactly what you want to hear, in exactly the SAME way Trump is telling his groupies exactly what THEY want to hear.

    That's all that's happening here.

    In the real world, free trade is lifting 100's of millions of Chinese out of poverty while at the same time increasing our standard of living. This is WHY free trade is so powerful, it's a WIN-WIN.

    In the real world, Chinese workers are not slaves - virtual or otherwise.

    In the real world, Chinese are happy to take a job at a factory and are not being exploited. As a matter of fact, Americans would LOVE to have such factory jobs.

    In the real world, the suicide rate is LOWER in electronic manufacturing factories compared to the equivalent factories in the USA.

    No, it is not the POTUS's job to 'look after the welfare of Americans'. The POTUS main job is to ensure that the US Constitution is upheld. Something Bush II/Obama were stellar failures at.


    Bernie proposes Chinese industrial workers are exploited Slaves (virtual) - THIS is his lie.

    But, what would one expect from a so-called Progressive socialist/sociopath. He (a) doesn't give two craps about humanity - nope, it's about Nationalism, in this case "America". You know, because where you're born purely due to dumb-luck is important. Well, maybe to a monkey or other lower tribal primate. And (b) Bernie peddles these sort of Nationalistic lies because they sell so well with the functionally illiterate American laborers - whom also couldn't give two shits about the lives of other humans, and in reality just want to put competition for labor out of business. They want to force us, other so-called FREE Americans into buying their products/labor.

    Well, too bad. The tractors are staying. Like it or not. One day it won't be the Chinese, it will be 3D-printers or AI robots, or something else that will be doing labor. And there will be Bernie incarnates to tell you all about how evil the 3D printers are for 'taking everyone's jerbs' or how the AI robots are being 'exploited'.



    Being a Progressive, Trump, is exactly the same - often selling the same BS.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. The evidence shows it was Government - again, that wrecked society. As it so often can't help but do time and time again (see: Welfare ghettos, Drug War, Police State, Rx monopoly, Government schools, pollution, MIC, etc.....). The financial markets were hyper-regulated before, during and after the GFC (which hasn't ended and is in fact only just beginning). Not to mention the Central Bank controls our money itself.

    Forbes: The Financial Crisis Was A Failure Of Government, Not Free Markets

     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    No, he isn't.
    Untrue. Sanders's way of saying things is quite different. He's making sense, for starters.

    Meanwhile, even if the above were true, the fact that he has never said anything different means that he isn't saying "anything", but instead the same things. Plus, none of what he says is contrary to fact. So - - -

    Good example: Sanders never says things as obliviously silly and false as that, and Trump does.

    You won't find Sanders quoting fact-free wingnut blather from Forbes magazine's famously error-prone editorial pages, for example - Trump, on the other hand, will say anything.

    He will even stand in the middle of the Reagan Library and promise to build, not tear down, a wall everyone knows will never be built - combining travesty with fatuity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
    pjdude1219 likes this.
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    At one time, it was believed that importing more than was exported impoverished a nation because the difference between import and exports had to be paid in gold, and the loss of gold was seen as a loss of national wealth. However, as early as 1776, Adam Smith’s classic The Wealth of Nations argued that the real wealth of a nation consists of its goods and services, not its gold supply.

    Too many people have yet to grasp the full implications of that, even in the twenty-first century. If the goods and services available to the American people are greater as a result of international trade, then Americans are wealthier, not poorer, regardless of whether there is a “deficit” or a “surplus” in the international balance of trade. Yes. And it matters not how Americans (or, more generally, how denizens of whatever country is considered to be the “domestic” one) gain greater access to goods and services produced globally.

    If the Chinese become zealous devotees of a religion whose doctrine requires that they serve Americans by shipping to Americans goods and services free of charge, then Americans are made better off.

    If the Chinese innovate in ways that lower their costs of production — and distribution and, thus, enable them to sell goods and services to Americans at lower prices — then Americans are made better off.

    If the Chinese invent new products and offer to sell these new products to Americans at prices that Americans find attractive, Americans are made better off.

    If the forces of international competition oblige Chinese producers to lower their export prices to levels closer to their costs of production, then Americans are made better off.

    If the Chinese government forces Chinese citizens to subsidize the production of goods and services sold to Americans so that Americans can purchase these goods and services at artificially low prices, then Americans are made better off (although Chinese citizens, other than those involved in the export trade, are made unjustifiably worse off).

    If the Chinese monetary authority buys US dollars with newly created yuan in order to (of necessity temporarily) make Chinese exports artificially inexpensive for Americans to buy, then Americans are made better off (although Chinese citizens, other than those involved in the export trade, are made unjustifiably worse off).

    The above reality is missed by people, such as Donald Trump (but hardly limited to him) who judge trade to be “successful” only if the jobs and businesses that it visibly — that is, directly — creates in the domestic economy are perceived as being greater than the number of jobs and businesses that it visibly destroys. This error is among the oldest and most difficult to kill in economics — not only because this error is serviceable to domestic producers who greedily seek protection from competition, but also because it appeals to people who refuse to think beyond what is immediately and blindingly obvious.

    -- Thomas Sowell in Basic Economics 5e (2015)
    pages 476-477
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Washington (CNN)
    When he rails against Mexico, China and Japan, Donald Trump sounds more like Bernie Sanders than any of his Republican rivals in the presidential race.

    Oh, big surprise there, the political class finds a new low with age old race-baiting, only instead of "Jews" or "Muslims" it's "Chinese".
    The Government always needs someone to blame for its inherent failures.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    "As you well know, corporations are moving to Taiwan, to Hong Kong, where they get virtually slave labor. In my opinion, a private corporation does not have the right to sabotage the economy of a town, and does not have the right to throw thousands of people out of work solely because they can get cheaper labor or a better deal elsewhere. They don't,"
    - Bernie Sanders (1976)

    He's been peddling this Nationalistic bullshit for nearly half a century. The fact IS that we are better off thanks to Taiwan and HK and SO ARE THEY. They are rich nations now. Just like China is becoming. If people like Bernie had his way, there's wouldn't BE a technological revolution, because it wouldn't have ever happened. And there'd be 100s of millions of poor humans.

    Lastly, no one 'steals' a job. You can't 'steal' business. Someone offers a cup of coffee at a better rate, you like their coffee - YOU freely buy it. That person didn't STEAL your business away from his competitors. He out competed them by offering you a better coffee at a cheaper price that you freely choose to buy. The exact same logic holds for buying labor as buying cups of coffee.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    And yet another professional economist wanders down the rabbit hole of utopian theoretical economics, delivering himself of what in physics would be prefaced with the important qualifier "neglecting friction" - which we can term "neglecting reality".

    "Neglecting reality" is no way to manage an economy.

    So which is it - he'll say anything, or he's been consistently saying the same things for half a century?

    What's in it for the coffee?
     
  16. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    As usual, Michael doesn't know what he's talking about. How are we better off exporting manufacturing to Asia? The rich shareholders disproportionately enjoy the fruits of those poor underpaid overworked and frankly abused workers, and the profits are hidden on overseas accounts to avoid American taxes. It's scandalous, and it's about time someone's talking about it. Does Bernie have a chance of changing the minds of a Republican controlled House? Probably not. But we have to start somewhere. Globalism is about to end. The new economy will be local.
     
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    16,479
    i think he may have read an economic textbook and just learned about comparative advantage. sadly his understanding of the concept didn't go past hey look this will allow me to push my sociopathic ideology.
     
  18. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    It's about putting America first. It's not that other races are bad.
     
  19. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    You are delusional.
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    The two are not mutually exclusive.

    The fact is, had Bernie been elected in 1976 as POTUS and was able to raise tariffs such that trade with Taiwan and HK was severely halted, there would be no technology revolution. It simply wouldn't have occurred, along with all of those jobs. As an added bonus, 100s of millions of humans would be poorer and/or starved to death - which, if you look at the ex-USSR/Cuba/Venezuela/North Korea/East Germany/Communist China/Bernietopia, you'd see ALWAYS happens when you let these insane socialists run / rule over the decisions of innocent humans / citizens.

    The approximate price of a PS4:
    US $400
    JP $400
    EG $400

    Brazil $2000

    Guess which country attempted to force Sony to produce electronics in their country? Guess which country has LESS capital to purchase other items - slowing down other industries? Guess which country probably won't have a PS4 factory in the near future as it shuts down? Guess which country was being ruled by a Progressive Socialist who just wanted to "Help" Brazilians by "Keeping the Jerbs" in Brazil? Guess which country does NOT have a thriving tech industry?

    Yes, come to Bernietopia where Jerbs magically *pop* into the ether from out of the void. Where Workers both want a Jerb AND want to save money by shopping at Walmart. It's a La La fantasy land where everyone starves to death because Dear Leader can and should use State violence against any and every non-violent legal choice made by every Citizen OF Bernietopia.

    How many businesses has Bernie Sanders founded? How many Jobs has he created? ANY? At least that douche Trump's done something productive with himself.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    No, you don't know what you're talking about.

    How are we better off letting the tractors plow the fields? The rich farmers and bankers enjoy the fruits of using MASSIVELY efficient poor tractors (which are virtual slaves as they're paid nothing, virtual because they're not human, but whatever).

    One more time: CHINA IS BECOMING RICH. Chinese workers are NOT being underpaid and they stand in long LOOOONG ques at a chance to get a factory job. Chinese works in factories in China have a lower - LOWER - suicide rate when compared against equivalent factory workers in the USA. China is becoming the richest nation in the world. 100s of MILLIONS of humans have been lifted out of poverty.

    What don't you get about the phrase 100s of millions of humans have been lifted out of poverty? Am I missing something? Is there a better way to explain that you're being lied to? I've been in Asia, I'm going there again for a month soon. I've been in China - free trade is LIFTING ALL BOATS.

    The problem with the USA is you need a licence to sell arranged flowers. See: Uber for more examples of what it takes to break the CRONY HYPER-REGULATED MARKETS here in the USA.


    Want to know what you get when you employ tractors and Chinese? Over abundance of food and super computers that fit in your pocket that's affordable by even the poorest Americans.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You know, there's going to come a day when there are NO factory jobs at all. None. Everything will be produced by robots and or at home using 3D printers. Tech gains in solar will easily harvest energy from the sun to fuel all of this innovation. AND there will be Bernie Sanders crapping on about the evils of Freedom, which is to say, free-markets.

    Free markets are free people. It's me having the free choice to go buy some *GASP* flowers from someone without requiring that someone to obtain a State permission slip (which is an outright scam). It's my ability to pick people up in my car without buying a $250,000 Taxi medallion. I know some pretty rich Slum Lords who bought up licences / medallions in Sydney AU. They don't give two shits about passenger safety. And they certainly couldn't f*cking care about the lives of the Taxi drivers (most are poor immigrants in 10 to a room share flats). Guess what they do NOT want? YOU being able to freely decide to use Uber. Why? Because some have invest MILLIONS into this rent-seeking scam.

    It's called Regulatory capture. They are Rent-Seekers. The Government is their Mafia ensure they keep control over YOU and your freedoms.

    They'd happily use the State to put you, an innocent person, into prison both for both buying or selling rides in a car. You know, for the Good of Society. Well, they would if they could. But Uber just keeps on trucking. And I LOVE Uber and use it in every city anywhere in the world it's at all possible to do so.



    One more time, the problem in the USA is not free markets. It's HYPER regulated markets.

    HYPER REGULATED MARKETS.

    As an analogy, think of your brain as your hardware. Think of your mind as the software - the things it would like to own is measured by the economy. So, the economy is only a measure of what all of our minds together want.
    The government would be bloatware.
    A massive bloatware taking up 95% of your CPU, 100% memory and 55% of your RAM. That's why we're poor.
    People like Bernie AND Trump make a living sticking Governmental malware and bloatware into your mind. Screwing up the economy in the process.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well, you were doing fine until you got to old Bernie and free markets. Here the deal, you like to extol the virtues of free markets, but you don't know what free markets are Michael. Regulation isn't synonymous with un-free markets. Markets only become not free when supply and prices are fixed. And that simply isn't the case with the US (utilities exempted).

    So when we arrive at this labor-less society, how do you propose folks get income and compete? At that point, production costs will approach zero.

    Well, you have it backwards. Free markets are just a byproduct of a free society, not the cause of it.

    Ok, that's just your standard tirade.

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