Drain the Swamp? Oh, that is so yesterday.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by joepistole, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    The thing is, there is a clear pattern when it comes to past administrations... Republicans drive the National Debt up, and then Democrats get in and try to knock it down. People get mad that the Democrats "didn't do enough" (typically because Republicans cock-block them worse than a younger brother in a co-ed dorm room), put a Republican in power, and the debt goes up... and the cycle continues.

    It's been that way for... at least the last twenty or thirty years...?
     
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    The point was and remains Republican hypocrisy with regards to the nation's deficits and debt. For 8 years now Republicans have steadfastly and zealously opposed debt and deficits. Republicans were willing to let the nation fall into a deep and prolonged depression because they didn't want to spend any money at a time when it was needed most. Republicans even attempted to engineer a debt default on multiple occasions in order to reduce the debt and federal spending - never mind that it made no sense.

    But now that Republicans control Congress and the presidency those debt and deficits which have been so important to Republicans for the last 8 years to the point where they repeatedly attempted to take draconian measures don't matter to them.

    That's true. That hasn't changed. What has changed in Republican opposition to debt and deficits; with Republicans it's now, what deficits and what debt? The deficits and debt which were so critical to them now don't matter. That's quite a reversal, and it just shows how disingenuous they have been and how shallow their devotees are.

    But there are adverse consequences to excessive debt, the biggest being stagflation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation

    For the last 8 years when the nation needed deficit spending and when it needed to add to the debt, Republicans opposed it. But now that the nation has emerged from the crisis and the economy is growing again, and no longer needs the fiscal stimulus, that's when Republicans want to supply it.

    Fiscal stimulus at this time would be inflationary. The economy is already running on all cylinders. So what will happen this year, if Republicans pass the expected fiscal stimulus, is a sharp uptick in inflation. The Federal Reserve will respond with higher interest rates. For the last 6 years, monetary policy (i.e. the Fed) has been the only game in town. The Fed has been keeping the economy going.

    But now, if Republicans do what is expected, we will have Congress feeding gas to the US economy, and the Fed will be applying the brakes in order to keep inflation in the bottle. For the last 6 years it has been the exact opposite. Congress has been applying the breaks in order to thwart an economic recovery, and the Fed has been feeding the economy gasoline with monetary expansion in order to prevent an economic depression.

    Yes, Trump does keep his base well fed. Unfortunately, all his base needs is demagoguery. Trump's base is a pretty cheap base. All he need do to keep them happy is to lie to them, and he is very good at that.

    Here is the thing with Trump, his policies are a mixed bag and frequently contradictory, e.g. his tax policies. Trump's trade policies could be so horrific, they could very easily push the nation into recession and at that point he would need all the stimulus he could muster.
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The debt is merely as issue for them so much as to provide a reason to block democrats, they have no problem putting the nation in more debt so long as the republicans are in charge

    Yeah but his base expect real progress for he, if in 4 years things get remarkably worse they will drop him. Remember he won on very slim margins, it would not take much to lose a few votes and switch 2020 to the democrats.
     
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  7. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    Sadly... I doubt they will.

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1347765261983191&id=346937065399354

    They will believe whatever their Republican masters tell them it seems...
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    W was re-elected. Reagan was re-elected. Both by increased margins, despite "things" getting notably and even dramatically worse during their first terms. (Including the "swamp", which saw its dramatic burgeoning toward current dimensions begin under Reagan).

    It will be easy for the current media operations to assign blame to Obama for anything bad during Trump's first term. And it seems likely that the Republicans will be able to replace Trump as their candidate without much opposition from Trump, in four years - if he lasts that long, and if they want to. I don't think they're going to want to, necessarily - this whole cuadillo trip could come in very handy for the Kochs and Tillersons and their buddies, and competent governance is not a big concern of theirs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  9. geordief Registered Senior Member

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    Why do you say that?
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The man's going to be old, and even figureheads get tired of the incessant demands of executive office. Faced with another campaign, unless it looks easy, how will he lean? The White House is not luxurious for him, the perks are not attractive, the hassle is boring.

    But the legal immunities might be a draw.

    Possibility: Trump wants to call it quits, and gets coerced to stay in office by some of the figures he has cut deals with - threats of prosecution, bankruptcy, etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I think I am the same age, seventy soon, and if someone paid me half the money in the world I would not do it.
    Even if I believed that I was the only person that could save the planet I would resist.
    I wonder why he bothers.
    I could not handle losing my freedom. Be here be there do this do that etc.
    Alex
     
  12. geordief Registered Senior Member

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    The man is such a **** he will probably try to run for the Democrats.
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I said "remarkably worse" by 2008 his approval rating was lower than Nixon as the economy nearly collapsed, we democrats by the way got back the senate and even the house in 2006 thanks to bush's incompetence. So it is perfectly possible Trump could fuck up enough to replicate that or more, question is would we survive?
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That - 2008 - was the end of his second term. It took Katrina, the biggest financial collapse since the Great Depression, and the failure in Iraq, to make that dent in Republican dominance. And the Dems only had a functioning Senate majority in session for a few months (recall the loss of Ted Kennedy) and never with filibuster impunity - so they didn't "control" the Senate, and what with the Blue Dogs and others the "liberals" never got control of the House either (the Dems aren't a unified bloc like the Reps).

    W was re-elected, Reagan was re-elected - odds are good that Trump, if he wants to be, can be re-elected as well. He'd have to try hard to do much worse than W, after all - although he is starting from a lower base and a weakened country, and the climate change stuff is starting to kick in, so that level of fuckup is not necessary for disaster.

    As far as survival - have we survived as of now? Did we actually survive W&Cheney? It's possible we did not, and all of this is aftermath. The fascist faction and its Party will be in control of every branch of the US government soon, starting with Trump's first Court appointment. That will be new.
     
  15. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Didn't Obama double the national debt and therefore created more debt than all the presidents before him?
     
  16. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Rotflbtc, joepistole declaring that the US was in crisis for the last 8 years.
     
  17. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    Ronald Reagan ....................x 3

    George H. W. Bush...............x 1.5 one term

    Bill Clinton......................... x 1.3

    George W. Bush................... x 2

    Barack Obama.................... x 1.6

    2.66 times for average republican

    1.45 times for average democrat
     
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  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    As Capracus has pointed out that's also true for each of Obama's Republican predecessors going back several decades. But for Republicans, it's not a problem for them until a Democrat holds the office. That's the part that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Fox News, et al., didn't tell you.

    In Obama's case, he has good reasons for the debt accumulated under his administration. He inherited 2 botched wars, the largest unfunded social program in history enacted to protect Republican cronies, and a recession the likes of which had not been seen since the Great Depression almost a century ago. Recessions are expensive. Wars are expensive, and unfunded crony capitalist social programs like Medicare Part D are expensive. When Obama was sworn into office he inherited from his Republican predecessor an economy shrinking at an annualized rate of 10%, and losing nearly a million jobs a month, and a trillion dollar plus deficit, and a Republican Party which refused to do anything about it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2016
  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL...has it gotten so bad for you comrade that Russians are now rolling on the floor and eating carpet?

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    Perhaps Putin hasn't told you yet, but 8 years ago the world was in crisis and on the verge of a worldwide great depression. That also includes your beloved Mother Russia. The crisis was successfully resolved, because Democrats came to office and fixed it.

    Unlike in your beloved Mother Russia, people aren't gods. They are just people, and they can always run their cars into ditches and trees. It just so happens Republicans and Russians like running their cars into ditches and trees. It's a crazy thing.

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  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah and it is going to take similar if not greater levels or failure to do the same for trump. I don't think we are in disagreement here, your just nitpicking at this point as usual for you. Now will we survive the amount of failure required to out Trump in 4 years?
     
  21. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    I think capracus and Joe explained it quite well

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  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Simple truth.

    Joe was a bit optimistic, actually, in his assertion that we are coming out of it.

    You missed what happened, in '08?
    No.
    Just wanted to make sure the complexity wasn't in the way of the answer.
     
  23. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    No, I simply remember him quite some time ago telling that everything is fine in the US.
     

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