Early Humans Lived in China 1.7 Million Years Ago, what about Africa

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by arauca, Aug 15, 2013.

  1. arauca Banned Banned

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    An extinct species of tool-making humans apparently occupied a vast area in China as early as 1.7 million years ago, researchers say.

    The human lineage evolved in Africa, with now-extinct species of humans dispersing away from their origin continent more than a million years before modern humans did. Scientists would like to learn more about when and where humans went to better understand what drove human evolution.

    Researchers investigated the Nihewan Basin, which lies in a mountainous region about 90 miles (150 kilometers) west of Beijing. It holds more than 60 sites from the Stone Age, with thousands of stone tools found there since 1972 — relatively simple types, such as stone flakes altogether known as the Oldowan. Researchers suspect these artifacts belonged to Homo erectus, "thought to be ancestral to Homo sapiens," Hong Ao, a paleomagnetist at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Xi'an, told LiveScience. [Photos: New Human Ancestors from Kenya]

    The exact age of these sites was long uncertain. To find out, Ao and his colleagues analyzed the earth above, below and in which stone tools at the Shangshazui site in the Nihewan Basin were found. The tools in question were stone blades potentially used for cutting or scraping.

    The scientists analyzed the way in which the samples of earth were magnetized — since the Earth's magnetic field has regularly flipped numerous times over millions of years, looking at the manner in which the magnetic fields of minerals are oriented can shed light on how old they are. The researchers discovered this site in northern China might be about 1.6 million to 1.7 million years old, making it 600,000 or 700,000 years older than previously thought.

    http://news.yahoo.com/early-humans-lived-china-1-7-million-years-133455147.html
     
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  3. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Our ancestral species discovered Stone Age technology roughly 4M years ago. This is when we find the first evidence of flint blades. These blades allowed them to scrape the bits of meat off of bones left by predators.

    Until this time, all hominins (extinct ape species more closely related to Homo sapiens than to chimpanzees, our closest living relatives) were grazing herbivores, like the other apes. They had large guts hosting bacterial cultures that digested cellulose, and augmented this pathetic protein ration with the few arthropods and other small animals they could catch. Brains require an enormous amount of protein for maintenance, so this limited the size of their brains.

    The addition of scavenged meat to their diet allowed their brains to grow larger, and indeed every subsequent species had a larger brain than its predecessor. Eventually those bigger brains allowed them to figure out how to use their flint blades in the construction of weapons, and they began to supplement their herbivore's and scavenger's diet with the flesh of animals they hunted. Suddenly their brains had more protein for maintenance and subsequent species had even larger brains.

    Eventually they became full-time hunters, eating a meat-intensive diet. Their guts shrank and no longer provided the ability to digest cellulose. At this point one of our most recent ancestors (probably H. habilis or H. erectus if not both) became an obligate carnivore, with a brain so large that only a hunter's diet could support it. This makes humans a unique species: an obligate carnivore with no claws or fangs! We are successful hunters only because we can build tools, and because we can hunt cooperatively.

    So when someone tries to convince you that it's "natural" for humans to be vegetarians (or worse yet, vegans), remind him that his body underwent millions of years of evolution, and the result is that it is fully adapted to a carnivorous diet.
     
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  5. arauca Banned Banned

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    Stop repeating the same thing over and over. Here is some thing different from your belief about modern man from Africa . I always believed Asia could be a potential of evolving modern man other then from Africa .
    If it is true then there is possibility of different stock of man African Mongol and the Neanderthal man . I know you will label this as racist , but it is ok . You are not 90 years old yet, open your mind
     
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  7. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    The fossil record has homo sapiens in Africa as early as 200,000 years ago. Out of Africa homo sapien fossils are less than 100,000 years old.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The racism is in your desperation to deny the African heritage of your species.

    Why would anyone fasten on evidence of H. erectus from far flung places, and somehow take that as evidence H sapiens evolved anywhere other than its established origin in Africa? Makes no sense. H erectus was a very successful species, widespread and common. It is fascinating to find it, or a similar variety, of hominid, in China long ago, but that doesn't change anything about the lineage of H sapiens.
     
  9. arauca Banned Banned

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    Why do you have to bring racism . How much do we really know . what we think today, tomorrow finding will change today truth ..

    Let me ask this : our common ancestor is the same for gorilla ,chimp, and other , we think they evolve in Africa . Were did Orangutan evolved , did he come from Africa ? Could Orangutan have a different ancestor from the Chimp and Gorilla ?
     
  10. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    My mind has been open to the thought that some science is "corruptable". And we don't fully understand everything. We assume that we do, and accept many "scientific things" as facts, and pure truths.
    Now the tools may be a separate human like species, and the time may be off when the tools were made and left. We don't 100% know. And what does it really matter? Be really neat if there was another "branch" of humans or a earlier group of humans there that long ago. Maybe there part of Atlantis lineage. Or maybe the tools are ape tools. Maybe there are a part of the Arian race....
     
  11. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    The oldest fossils of hominins (apes that branched off from the chimpanzees to become the ancestors of humans) are found in Africa and only in Africa.

    Ardipithecus is the transitional species. Ardi was clearly an erect bipedal walker (although not as fully adapted to that posture as subsequent species), yet retained one prehensile toe to facilitate rapidly climbing into the trees to escape predators. Ardi was found in Ethiopia, and there is zero evidence to suggest that any inviduals of this species ever migrated out of that region, much less to other continents.

    Ardi's descendants also evolved in Africa. Eventually some of these later species migrated to Asia and one (Homo neanderthalensis) migrated to Europe. However, the earliest fossils of H. sapiens are all found in Africa, 150-200KYA. Clearly, our species originated in Africa, not on another continent.

    It wasn't until 60KYA that the first successful migration of our species out of Africa occurred. They were looking for food during an ice age (rainfall is low during an ice age because so much water is locked in glaciers and icecaps, so food is scarce) and finally found it in Australia. These people were the ancestors of the Native Australians. The next migration out of Africa occurred ten thousand years later, during better weather. These people settled in Asia and eventually also populated Europe and the Americas. DNA analysis clearly shows the timing and routes of these migrations. Review the work of Dr. Cavalli-Sforza, whose 21st-century study of our ancestry was exhaustive and is universally respected.

    There is no respectable evidence to contradict this.

    Cavalli-Sforza clearly mapped the migration routes of the first H. sapiens population from Africa into southwestern Asia, and then into eastern Asia. He also correlated their DNA. There is no controversy over this. This occurred about 10K years after their arrival in Asia.

    The migration into Europe happened about 10K years later; those were the people we call the Cro-Magnon. They died out, except, possibly, for the Basques, who may be their descendants. The current population of Europe are the descendants of the Indo-European tribes who migrated out of Asia very recently, about 2000BCE--either around the Caspian Sea through the Pontic Steppe, or across the Bosporus from Turkey, there is a tiny bit of evidence to support both possibilities. With their Neolithic (agricultural) technology they easily marginalized the Cro-Magnon and replaced them.

    As noted, descendants of Ardipithecus made successful migrations to Asia and Europe. H. neanderthalensis appears to have evolved in Europe, and eventually spread to Asia. The Neanderthals were perfectly suited to cold weather so they tended to remain in northern latitudes. When the last ice recession began around 30KYA, H. sapiens began migrating into Europe, which was now much warmer. Our species was more comfortable in the warmer weather, and with our more agile build we were able to hunt the smaller faster-moving animals that migrated into Europe with us; while the Neanderthals kept chasing the shrinking population of woolly mammoths and other larger, slower animals.

    It's clear that modern humans and Neanderthals mated with each other; the average modern European has about 5% Neanderthal DNA, which is not found in the DNA of Indians, Malaysians and Incas, for example.

    It's not necessarily racist. It's simply bad science. The migration routes of our species have been clearly mapped and clocked. There is no more room for speculation on this topic. Cavalli-Sforza's work is so meticulous that he found traces of the DNA of Native Australians in some of the people who live at the very southern tip of India. Apparently during their long migration from Africa to Australia, a few hardy souls stayed behind and established a small but successful colony along the shore, where they could subsist by fishing. When the second wave of H. sapiens exploded out of Africa, they encountered these people and assmiliated them.

    One might direct that admonition back at you. PBS ran a series on Cavalli-Sforza's work. In one moving scene his staff member was in Arizona, talking to the Navajo Indians. The Navajo are one of the largest tribes in the USA, with the largest of all reservations that extends into two states (part of it is New Mexico) and has its own government and police force. The Navajo are fiercely proud of their heritage and insist on the literal truth of their own creation myth: God created them right there in Arizona and they have always been there.

    The researcher showed the local chief photographs of the Yenisei people in Siberia. His son grabbed one and yelled, "Look at this, Dad! This guy looks just like our Uncle Ernie!"

    The chief looked at the photo for quite a long time. Then he sighed, composed himself, stared into the camera with great dignity, and said, "Then I guess what you white men have been trying to tell us is true. We really are all brothers."

    Linguists have recently corroborated this connection: the Yenisei language appears to be related to the Na-Dene language family of North America, which includes Navajo.

    All apes are descended from one ancestor. This includes the Lesser Apes (about 20 species of gibbons) and the Great Apes (the two species of gorilla, the two species of chimpanzee, the orangutan and humans). The first ancestral ape appears to have arisen in Africa (I'm not a biologist so I don't have access to university libraries), and many of his descendants stayed there. (Even H. sapiens stayed in Africa until 60KYA.) But both gibbons and orangutans now occur in southern Asia and Oceania, so clearly some of his descendants roamed farther away--including humans.

    This is hardly remarkable. Wolves have spread to every continent except Australia and Antarctica--without the help of humans.
     
  12. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Very informitive as always Fraggle Rocker..
     
  13. arauca Banned Banned

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    How do we know the apes come only from one ancestor ? Is not that an Hypothesis only
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No. It is in the first place demanded by theory, in some sense - go back far enough and every known mammal came from one ancestor - and in the second a consequence of taxonomic relationship as established by multiple lines of evidence from bone structure and other somatic features to DNA analysis.
     
  15. arauca Banned Banned

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    Since You are so positive How did the orangutan ended in Borneo and Sumatra , did the go by boat of the African emigre in 200000 brought the in a cage and let the loose . So what is your answer ? Don't give me the standard line of Frage Roker
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I had no idea anyone thought the orangutan came from anywhere else - I thought researchers generally agree it evolved in the area it currently inhabits. Where did you get the idea it came from somewhere else?
     
  17. arauca Banned Banned

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    Ask Fraggle Rocker, He is preaching they come from Africa
     
  18. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Wasn't there a time all the land mass were joined, so there wasn't the strict geographical location for anything.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  19. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    Orangutan ancestors split from other ape (and human) ancestors around 12-16 million years ago. This gives them plenty of time to move around.
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, he isn't.

    That would be "ancestors", not "orangutans" - it's important to keep that distinction clear when replying to those with arauca's agenda.

    Since then, of course, Borneo and Sumatra and Africa themselves have had time to move around somewhat.
     
  21. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Those who speak/write/keyboard in in absolutes are almost invariably wrong.

    New world monkeys, old world monkeys, lemurs, orangutans, homo,

    Leave us not to discount continental drift. The last time south america, africa, and sumatra were connected is currently thought to be well over 65 million years ago, so if we accept evolutionary splits to have occured after that time, we are left with the question of how their ancestors crossed oceans to populate the seperated continents.

    To claim "out of africa" for all ancestors of homo sapiens sapiens, is an oft spoken absolute that is based on very thin evidence. It's beauty lies only in it's simplicity.
    Glaciers have removed much potential evidence.
    Our (Homo) evolution happened during this ice age. With the advance and retreat of the glaciers and the sea levels, much potential evidence is also currently underwater.
     
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Actually the evidence is monumental and incontrovertible. There's another thread going on this subject and you need to review it.

    Basically you appear not to be up to date with the work of Dr. Cavalli-Sforza in this century. Using DNA analysis of hundreds of subjects all over the world, he has compiled a map that traces the migration paths of all the major population groups. It even dates them so we can see who went where when, and who descended from them to start a new lineage.

    Google his work and you'll find a zillion citations including the popular press. There was a PBS special that presents it all visually, and that's available in several installments on YouTube.

    There are no longer any remotely respectable alternatives to the out-of-Africa theory. It's a done deal. Cavalli-Sforza can tell anybody who their ancestors were, and where they lived at key moments in their migrations. And every single one of them started out in Africa. In fact, all of us non-African people are descended from a single tribe, the San or "Bushmen," who once lived in northeastern Africa, but after the desertification of the Sahara they were pushed down into the southeastern region. We have very little genetic diversity, only 50,000 years after our ancestors came out of Africa. Our DNA is stunningly-clear San DNA.
     
  23. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    maybe

    the modern dna studies are only taking us back to time after tobo, and the proposed human near extinction/genetic bottleneck.
    Dr. Cavalli-Sforza also suggested that europeans were 65% asian and 35% african.

    neanderthalensis? denisovans?

    As always, the complexity and almost constant new knowledge leads to an "absolute certainty du jour" and another tomorrow and another the day after that.
    Nothing is incontrovertible. In science, there are no "done deals".
    The "absolute"

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    best that we can ever say is that we have a likelyhood.
    Or, that "current evidence supports............".

    The old paradigms are falling on a regular basis.
    (Lake E'lgygytgyn, clovis first, the Childe's neolithic agricultural revolution, etc........new evidence refines or throws out the old.
    That is the beauty of science.
    We must keep an open mind.
     

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