ELECTORAL COLLEGE

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JOEBIALEK, Dec 28, 2016.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that the federation of States effectively means that each state is fundamentally a "pseudo autonomous collective".

    That is to say that at it's fundamental foundation the United nature of the United States is not to be taken for granted.
    So if you have 52 states all with various population densities you still effectively have only 52 votes, all equal, regardless of the population demographics.
    The electoral college further complicates things by granting each of those "Union ized" states more than one vote in an attempt to deal with those demographics meaning that the vote per state is no longer equal.
    But the point I wanted to make is that the Union of states is not to be taken for granted.

    The United States is just that; a union of autonomous states under a uniting federation.

    I believe the electoral college attempts to deal with this issue of a union of sovereign states and can not be dismantled that easily or with the presumption that the USA is one nation when in fact it is a union of many.
     
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    It's complicated, I'll give you that, especially for foreigners. The government you see now in America isn't the original government. After the American Revolution the United States formed a confederation of states. There were only 13: the 13 original colonies. The confederation failed, and the governing documents, the Articles of Confederation, were replaced with our current constitution. The founding fathers wanted a stronger union, that's why we have our current constitution.

    The bloodiest war America fought was the American Civil War. The North was referred to as the Union and the South was referred to as the Confederates. The South was all about state's rights. They felt the Union couldn't impose laws on individual states, and in particular the Union couldn't prevent them from engaging in practice of slavery. The Civil War was about what kind of government we would have. The Union won and the Confederates lost. We are no longer a confederation of states but a union of states. Each state is not autonomous. The federal government is supreme. Prior to the Civil War Americans viewed themselves as state citizens more than citizens of a nation. Now we view ourselves as citizens of a nation and residents of a particular state. But the state's rights issue continues to be an article of contention with the American right wing and in particular extremist groups. Hell, we still have some people believing the Civil War never ended. We have an article in our Constitution which defines states rights, and those rights are limited by statue and stare decisis.

    Each state is not autonomous; that issue was definitively decided with the American Civil War. We began as a loose confederation, but we have been moving more and more toward union. In fact, the preamble of our Constitution it clearly makes that statement, "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

    The Electoral College was a bone given to slave owning states. Slave states feared the large states would force them to give up their slaves, hence the Electoral college which gave slave owing states more votes than warranted by population alone. Additionally, even though slaves were not considered people and were not legally represented, and couldn't vote, slave owning states were allowed to count slaves as people for legal representation in the Electoral College.

    The time for the Electoral College has come and gone. It's a vestige of slavery. It allowed the South to keep the institution of slavery alive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
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  5. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

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    (Sigh!) . . . . . . . Shoulda', Woulda', Coulda' . . . . . Get Over It Whiners!!
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    That's about as intelligent as it gets with you right wingers isn't it?

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    You don't need history; you don't need reason; you don't need evidence. All you need is a soundbite. All you need is to repeat what some right wing entertainer told you. You don't even need to read. Because if you had read, you would know the topic under discussion has nothing to do with "shoulda, woulda, coulda". But hey, you are a right winger; you have no need of reason or facts or even to think. Your beloved entertainers do all that for you. Isn't that so nice of them?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  8. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

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    Joe: If I recall . . . YOU are the one who is continually requiring history, reason, and evidence - which members attempt to provide to you. But, as such is provided to you, you fail to accept anything that is at odds with your belief system. BTW: I am actually an independent and I have voted for more liberal candidates in past election cycles with whom I shared certain philosophies, but I came to realize that Reagan was indeed wise in his statement that (paraphrased: "Government is NOT the solution, it is the PROBLEM". That, and what I have witnessed over a great many years, leads me to generally support a more conservative stance - however, this time I very nearly supported Bernie Saunders!
     
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL...Yeah, you are a liberal who just happens to mindlessly repeat right wing nonsense as you have did just now, e.g. "Government is NOT the solution, it is the PROBLEM". But no you are not a right winger....who do you think you are fooling? The only one you are fooling is yourself. You aren't an independent. Nothing about you is independent. You can call yourself anything you wish. You can call yourself a turtle, but it won't make you a turtle. You can call yourself an independent, but it won't make you an independent. The only one you're deceiving is yourself. You don't even realize you contradicted yourself. In one sentence you claim to be independent; in the next you claim to be "conservative". You cannot have it both ways. You are either independent or you are not, and you clearly aren't.

    And yes, I am the one who is continually requiring history, reason and evidence of you and those like you. But you never have history, evidence, and reason. Because history, evidence, and reason doesn't matter to you and people like you. You haven't been able to answer even one of the questions I have posed to you with evidence and reason. You have never, ever, been able to back up any of your assertions with fact and reason: not once. But none of that matters to you. You live in a post-fact world of right wing extremism.

    The least you could do or should do is be honest with yourself and others. But I doubt you ever will be.
     
  10. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

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    I expected no less in your response . . . . BTW: my answer to what you said I could call myself? . . . ."You Bet Your Sweet Ass I am!!" (If you understand my response, there is hope for you yet!!) . . . . want me to send you a copy of my 'membership card? . . . .do YOU have one? Other members might enlighten Joe regarding the text of my response . . . . . HAHA!

    BTW #2: Moderator, you may check with me for the context of my response to Joe - regards my (official) membership in the 'Turtle Club International'!
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  11. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

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    BTW, Joe: As an 'Independent' I reserve the right to vote for whom I feel best represents the good of the People - and whether they are liberal or conservative is of little import to my decision . . . .that's what an Independent actually IS!! The 'primary issue' (I guess) with being Independent is that one typically does not participate in the primary elections. (ergo, a 'primary issue' . . . . get the humor?) . . . . . and Remember. . . "If you can't laugh about it, its not funny"!

    But, alas . . . . . we both digress from the intent of the OP discussion . . . we can argue elswhere/elsewhen. . . . I'm done for now . . . . Happy New Year!
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You aren't an Independent if you voted for any Republican candidate for President since 1976 (none of them have been reasonable, from an Independent pov - Supply Side economics, incompetent agency management, irrationally authoritarian and expensively punitive domestic laws, wholesale violations of Constitutional provisions, and massive debt piled up during times of economic health, are not reasonable from any but a rightwing and Republican pov)

    And having two of those bad news candidates gain the White House by electoral college idiosyncrasy instead of popular vote margin puts the institution in doubt. Bill Maher has a point, when he notes that if their are four Senator-derived electoral votes from the two Dakotas there should be fifteen extra from California.
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL...Do you now.

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    You need to stop deceiving people. You reserve the right to vote for whoever you feel best represents the "good of the people" and you always vote for whomever Republican entertainers to tell you to vote for. It's funny how that works.
     
  14. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Don't you think that's more than a little childish? You're trolling.
     
  15. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

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    Ho Hum . . . . . whatever . . . . guess you would actually 'know' what Independents think . . . . (NOT!)
     
  16. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

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    YES . . . . that's MORE than a little childish . . . . but, most of your posts are certainly less than a little childish . . . BTW: If you think I am 'trolling', You are welcome to Report me as such to admin . . . .so much for the 1st Amendment . . . . sigh!
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I know how self-described "Independents" usually post around here - they channel wingnut Republican media swill memes.

    I said nothing about what you think. I noted a behavioral criterion for actual "Independent" designation: you can't be immersed in the Republican media bubble, with your entire world view framed by Republican media efforts, and still be "Independent"in the ordinary sense of the term, and one way to see if you are in thrall that way is to check on whether you voted for - say - W&Cheney, McCain/Palin, or Romney, for President.

    Because the most common variety of "Independent" these days is a two-time W&Cheney voter who very much wants to forget what happened between 2001 and 2009, and believes that Trump is different from that old Republican Party they suckered for back then because who could have known what would happen?

    And that kind of "Independent" is what the rest of the world calls a "core Republican voter". On account of that's what they are, in behavioral reality.

    Another way to check "independence" is by stance on the recount efforts - especially in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and a couple of others where all kinds of statistically weird and evidently bad stuff happened. An Independent normally would be very sensitive to threats to the integrity of the vote and the count, since they would amplify the flaws of the two-Party system in the US.
     
  18. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    Meanwhile, Independent voters like my wife and I are sitting here, shaking our heads at both sets of "party" candidates that were put up and going "How did it come to this..."
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    21,647
    And the rest of the world are watching with bated breath, as Trump eventually takes the reigns.

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  20. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    Aye. I don't foresee an enjoyable next four years... either things will go to pot as congressional Republicans cower before The Donald and abide his every whim, or they and congressional Democrats will stop most anything from getting accomplished... at all...
     
  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    26 years or Republican entertainment and misinformation, that's how we got to where we are. No doubt, it's a very dangerous place.
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what will happen. The markets think Trump will be a big spender. He has advocated a trillion dollar spend on infrastructure and a 12 trillion dollar tax cut, mostly for the rich. So there's a lot of stimulus on tap, and I think it likely he will get it. Republicans have typically been big spenders. The question remains on what will he spend this money?

    Trump's big spending at a time which it is not needed will be tempered and even nullified by his international bloopers. We may need trillions in additional spending just to keep the economy out of recession if Trump starts a number of trade wars it seems likely he will create. Longer term I fear the damage he will do to the international order and stability and the American name. That I think will be a disaster. What I fear most about Trump is that he could well be setting us up for WW III.

    There may come a time when Republicans in congress leave him, e.g. Trump's chumminess with Putin. Trump's conflicts of interests are very disturbing. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Republican congress impeach Trump or a cabinet coup.
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Congressional Republicans and Trump's whims are pretty well aligned so far. I don't see how much "cowering" needs to happen - they're as crazy as he is, and they have of course majorities in both houses of Congress, so it's as much a matter of whether and how far the Donald will go along with them as the reverse.

    As far as blocking all business, necessary and otherwise, the Dems have never been any good at that, and the Reps have everything their way now. So that's not the danger.
     

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