# Electrostatic Pulse Engine

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Joeblow93132, Jan 5, 2002.

1. ### Joeblow93132Guest

I came up with this idea several days ago, and would be interested in some input:

If you take two flat metal plates, hold them one meter apart, and positivly charge them both , they would repel each other. So if these plates are connected together, so that where one plate moves the other would follow, the total velocity would be 0. In other words, it wouldn't move. In order for it to move, you would have to create a force on only one plate.This is how it might be done:

You have the same setup as above but instead of a constant electric field, you create a pulsing electric field in plate 1. In plate 2 you create an identical pulsing field equivalent to plate 1, but with a 120 degree phase shift. Here are the details:

You create a 500KV positive charge on plate 1. The electric field travels away from plate 1 towards plate 2. Plate 2 is currently not charged. When the electric field from plate 1 reaches the halfway point between plate 1 and 2, the field is shut off at plate 1. You just created a pulse that has the width of half the distance of the plates, which is traveling towards plate 2 at light speed. Plate 2 is still off. When the front of the electric pulse finally hits Plate 2, you create a 500KV positive charge on plate 2. The charge from plate 2 is pushing against the electric pulse from plate 1, causing plate 2 to be pushed back. If plate 1 is connected to plate 2, the whole device will move in the direction of the electric pulse. Finally when the back of the pulse finally hits plate 2, plate 2 switches off and the whole process begins over again.

This device would convert electricity directly into propulsion, and it could reach(theoretically) light speed.

Note: Electromagnets can be used instead of the electric plates.

Tom

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2002

3. ### Don HRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
642
electric and thermal dynamics are pretty much beyond me but how does your example differ from pulling one's self up by their own bootsraps?

5. ### Joeblow93132Guest

Don H,

If you pull yourself up by your bootstraps there is an action and a reaction force. These two forces balance each out so that you wouldn't move.

Pretend that you take a broomstick and push one end of it against a wall while holding on to the other end. You will experience a force pushing you back at the same strength as the force of the broomstick against the wall.

What if you wanted to push the wall without being pushed back yourself? You might try to acheive this with a gun. If you shoot a bullet at the wall, only the wall experiences the force of the bullet when it impacts the wall. Unfortunately, you would still experience the same force when the gun was fired.

But if you fire an electric field bullet you won't experience the recoil because the electric field doesn't have mass(or it's mass is negligable). As the bullet approaches the wall, the wall would become charged and push against the bullet. There would be an action/reaction force between the bullet and the wall, NOT between the bullet and you. So basically, this force would push the wall forward and the bullet back towards you. But if the bullet does reach you, which is unlikely, you would just switch your electric gun off, and the electric bullet would pass right through you.

As you can see from the example above, the wall would be pushed but the electric gun would not. If you were to physically attach the electric gun to the wall, you would have a propulsion device.

Tom

Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2002

7. ### peter/peterU.W.P.Registered Senior Member

Messages:
88
The switch.

You would need a FTL switch to beat the first pulse. Or you would need some type of dely to start the pulse on plate 2 before pluse 1. I think:bugeye:

8. ### Joeblow93132Guest

Peter,

I was thinking that a digital circuit would do. A computer processor clock can be used to generate the pulses. The pulses would then enter a digital circuit that creates the delay. Finally, the regular and delayed pulses would be fed to amplifiers which would be connected to the plates.

Tom

9. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

Messages:
20,855
This device would convert electricity directly into propulsion

No. Don H is right. There is no propulsion here. If this did work, all you've managed to produce is an electric vibrator. The forces are balanced internally and don't affect the inertia of the ship at rest.

10. ### Boris2Valued Senior Member

Messages:
1,106
You will get a recoil from the mass of the projectile you fire.

It is the same recoil you get when firing a conventional weapon. It is not so much the method of propulsion you use but the mass you fire.

11. ### Joeblow93132Guest

Q,

As far as I see it, there would only be two forces in this device: The force of the second plate's electric field pushing against the incomming electric pulse and the reactionary force pushing against the second plate. I don't see any force that would act on the first plate.

If I'm wrong please indicate all the forces you believe would be present in this device.

Tom

12. ### Joeblow93132Guest

Boris2,

What is the mass of an electric field? As far as know, the production of an electric field by an object does not produce a force on that object.

Tom

13. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

Messages:
20,855
You create a 500KV positive charge on plate 1. The electric field travels away from plate 1 towards plate 2.

14. ### Joeblow93132Guest

Q,

You switch off the electric field at plate 1 BEFORE the pulse reaches, or begins to interact, with plate 2. When the pulse finally reaches plate 2, it is too far away to influence plate 1.

Tom

15. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

Messages:
20,855
You have the same setup as above but instead of a constant electric field, you create a pulsing electric field in plate 1.

16. ### JimmyJamesMaster JediRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
60
um....

I don't understand if the bullet has no mass then how can it make the wall move when the force of the wall at rest is greater then the force of the traveling bullet? Newtons 1st Law...

17. ### Joeblow93132Guest

JimmyJames,

Mass is not the issue, electric fields are. If the "electric bullet" hit an uncharged wall, there wouldn't be any force on the wall because the "electric bullet" doesn't have mass, so the wall wouldn't move.

If, however, the wall suddenly became positively charged as the positive "electric bullet" approached the wall, the positive electric field of the wall would PUSH against the incomming positive "electric bullet". According to Newton's third law of motion, the "electric bullet" would push back at the positive electric field of the wall, and the positive electric field of the wall would push against the wall itself.

If the force on the wall is large enough it would move. The size of the force depends on the strength of the electric bullets(electric field), the strength of the electric field of the wall, and how many "electric bullets" hit the wall every second.

Tom

18. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

Messages:
20,855
joeblow

Don't forget about plate 1. There is an action followed by an opposite and equal reaction when the 'electric bullet' is fired from plate 1 thus canceling out any and all effects.

19. ### espRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
908
It's the 120 deg phase difference between plates 1 and 2 that gets me.

I don't think that this would give you a component of a one sided force, just a reduction in the co-reactive forces developed with a phase difference of 0 deg.

This being the case, there wouldn't be any usable propulsive force developed.

20. ### Joeblow93132Guest

Q,

As I mentioned before, there is no recoil force on plate 1 because the "electric bullet" has no mass. The "electric bullet" only reacts with electric fields. It doesn't encounter an electric field until it reaches plate 2. At that point it pushes plate 2 because the plate 2 and the "electric bullet" are both positive electric fields.

Tom

21. ### Joeblow93132Guest

esp,

If what Q said is correct, and plate 1 recoils when it creates the electric pulse then all forces would be neutralized.

But plate 1 doesn't recoil because electric fields have no mass. The electric pulse would only create a force when it hits plate 2. This force would push plate 2 away from the electric pulse.

If you see any other forces that appear in this device that might neutralize the force created by the plate2/electric pulse interaction, please let me know.

Tom

22. ### peter/peterU.W.P.Registered Senior Member

Messages:
88
What about a constant pos+ charge on plate 2 with the pulse coming from plate 1?. Whould this not negate the vibration that an alternating field would inducue.

:bugeye:

23. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

Messages:
468
Joeblow93132

Is there any force BEFORE the pulse reaches?

On static electric to produce propultion, I'll stick on Biefeld-Brown Effect by T.T. Brown.