eruvs

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Michael 345, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    eruv

    noun JUDAISM

    plural noun: eruvs

    an urban area enclosed by a wire boundary which symbolically extends the private domain of Jewish households into public areas, permitting activities within it that are normally forbidden in public on the Sabbath.

    Definitions from Oxford Languages

    A intriguing work around

    A sample in Britain

    Eruvs

    Eruvs in Britain

    Britain's first, and biggest, eruv was created in February 2003. The eruv has a boundary 11 miles long and encloses an area of 6.5 square miles. It covers Hendon, Golders Green and Hampstead Garden Suburb, together with parts of Childs Hill, Cricklewood, East Finchley, Finchley and Mill Hill.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/reli...s in Britain,Finchley, Finchley and Mill Hill.

    List of places with Eruvs - includes some in Australia

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin

    What happened to seperation church/state?

    Why are various levels of government allowing a religious work around (assisting a religion to cheat on itself) to be implemented?

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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    When I first read about eruvs, just a couple of years ago, I went looking for the one our city (Toronto) has. They're are very hard to spot.

    These questions make no sense.
     
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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Why are various levels of Government allowing Eruvs to be, not exactly constructed, but defined?

    Do the various levels of Government feel obliged to cater for, to me, a very contrived work-a-round suspect construct (We'll run a bit of wire between these poles (Government property) and call it a wall)

    Believe what you like about your religious laws ie
    In Jewish tradition it is commonly said that "carrying" is forbidden on Shabbat. Specifically, "transferring between domains" (הוצאה מרשות לרשות‎) is considered one of the 39 categories of activity prohibited on Shabbat.

    WELL DON'T DO IT OR THEM - the whole 39 activities

    What other work-a-rounds have you contrived to avoid being inconvenience by your own beliefs?

    Would it not be easier to scrap the whole 39 beliefs?

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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    "allowing"? What kind of government do you live in?

    Cater?

    Are you one of those people who believe others should only get to do things that make sense to you?

    Easier for whom? You?
     
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Well I am taking the view the makers of Eruvs are required to apply to some level of Government to attach their structure to public structures. And that level of Government has allowed the applicants to do so

    1am

    Noooo hence the "to me"

    Since I don't believe in any of the 39 whatever's not me

    Easier for current believers

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  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Sure. And the church down the street from me "Our Lady of Eternal Pain and Suffering" probably applied to have their structure attached to water main, electrical and sewer mains.
    That's what governments do.

    Ok, so the eruvs are a personal inconvenience directly to you, if not, why are your views on their religious efficacy relevant?

    So this is just a general 'why not ditch the whole thing' slam of the religion for its own sake?
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    IMO, it just demonstrates that everything in religion is negotiable.
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Those are secular normal services not reques to cater for a structure to assist religious beliefs
    Again seperation Government / church

    And again seperation Government / church

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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    In the US, religious institutions and properties are tax exempt and have certain legal protections from government interference. This is covered by the "Establishment Clause".
    Establishment Clause - Wikipedia
     
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    What do you think "separation of church and state" means?

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  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Means Government makes no law to impose Religion on its citizens and does not get involved in religion

    Granting permission for Religion to use its facilities opens the door for every Religion to request the use of Government facilities so the Religion may follow its beliefs

    Insert here something about wedges with thin edges and slopes which are slippery

    And it might just be atheist when they understand what a eruv is complain "You mean that bit of wire represents a wall so it turns this public space into a fake extension of a believer's (an urban area enclosed by a wire boundary which symbolically extends the private domain of Jewish households into public areas, permitting activities within it that are normally forbidden in public on the Sabbath.
    Definitions from Oxford Languages
    ) household. Well I am not comfortable in walking through a believer's household, fake or not"

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  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    And that applies here how?

    Like water? electricity? sewage?

    Must every church have a well, a windmill and an incinerator on its property?

    Yes. That warning works both ways.


    As suspected, you appear to be one of those who feel that the only things that should be allowed are things that benefit you.
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    You asked for a definition
    Gave you a definition

    These are PUBLIC facilities available to all
    So what happens when another Religion comes along with a request
    Hey we like the idea of a eruv so we can do stuff we are not really allowed to do. When and where can we set our up?"
    Seriously?
    (Well I am not comfortable in walking through a believer's household, fake or not)
    You don't think such a complaint could / wouldn't be made by other generic religious people or generic atheist?

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  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    OK, so you concede that separation of church and state is not relevant to this discussion. What's the chance you'll apologize for a 20 post side track with no basis?


    No they're not. They're available to landowners who pay property taxes.
    Churches are landowners who pay property taxes.


    How about if a non-religion comes along with their own frivolous request?

    So, I'm a church, paying taxes to my government so I can make my Holy water and light my altar.
    And this one dude comes along and says 'I don't like that. You should stop.'
    Why should I stop? Because you say so?
    Who says your right to do what you want supersedes my right to do what I want?
    I pay my taxes.


    Why not?
    Either you believe it's really their household and manifestly impinges on your personal sovereignty, or you think it's harmless delusional superstition.

    Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

    So far, it's just you.

    Are you just playing Devil's Avocado for gits and shiggles? Just to stir the pot?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  18. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I was answering point by point but breakfast arrived when I return the reply I had already typed had gone
    To lazy to go through again

    I will do part here

    delusional superstition. or not the Religious person believes it and so why is a Government Department buying into a religious delusion

    How about if a non-religion comes along with their own frivolous request?

    I would expect them to reject it THE SAME AS THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE REJECTED THE FRIVOLOUS DELUSIONAL REQUEST THAT BY PUTTING A WIRE ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY IT MAGICALLY TURNS INTO A WALL WHICH THEN MAGICALLY ALLOWS SAID RELIGIOUS PERSON TO CARRY OUT ACTIVITIES HIS OWN RELIGION BANS THEM FROM DOING
    In one stroke a Government Department has
    • enabled a delusional person to engage in their delusion and
    • put Government property to be part of the delusion
    • opened the Government Department to ANYONE to put forward their favourite delusion
    So far, it's just you.

    So far just you also

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  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You keep making these vague, hand-wavey insinuations. What does "buying into" mean for a government to do?


    OK, your non-religious request for people to stop attaching wires to poles is rejected.

    Are we done here?



    You do realize the Jews are taxpayers and voters, right? They are part of the body people who get to vote on what freedoms their country supports.


    The government is not in the business of telling people what they can and can't believe.
    That is what 'separation of church and state' means.
    It means freedom. To practice their beliefs - without state interference or persecution.


    No it isn't. There are almost 400,000 tax-paying, voting Jews in my city alone who are exercising their right to religious freedom.
    Tell me what city you're in and I'll tell you how many tax-paying, voting Jews you have who are exercising their right to religious freedom.

    So far, there's one of you. And you are not exercising your right to religious freedom; you are trying to oppress others from doing so.

    What you need to do is write to your congressperson (or its equivalent where you live) and complain that your rights are being oppressed by these eruvs. Let me know how that goes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry feed up with spoon feeding you answers many of which you should be able to work out what would be my response

    You appear to be like a petulant child with a stream of whys

    I'll give one explanation to the above post and I'm done

    eruv
    noun JUDAISM
    plural noun: eruvs
    an urban area enclosed by a wire boundary which symbolically extends the private domain of Jewish households into public areas, permitting activities within it that are normally forbidden in public on the Sabbath.

    Definitions from Oxford Languages
    MY TAKE - A delusional construct to enable a group of religious people to dodge playing by the rules of the religion
    MY TAKE - Don't add delusion (D2 wire equals a wall construct) to a delusion (D1 now under the delusional wall can do activities forbidden on Sabbath) to correct D1 MY TAKE - get rid of D1
    {Incidentally if I read in a patient's notes
    * believes if a wire is strung up it represents a wall and patient can engage in activities normally forbidden to patient *
    I would make extra sure said patient obtain medication on time

    I would not expect a patient with a diagnosis of
    * patient believes cannot engage in normal everyday activities on particular day of the week *
    to have said delusion treated with
    * let's give patient another delusion which negates the first delusion *
    I smell mal practice}

    Work out your own replies to your questions from my above post

    Just for interest - Currently I am stranded in Kuta, Bali Indonesia with a fractured left head of humerus (stranded 10 months - fracture 2 months). X-ray available on request. Closest city Denpasar

    Normal residence Darwin, Australia

    Waiting for COVID-19 restrictions to lift to return to Darwin for operation to shoulder

    Would be very surprised if you would find any eruv in the whole of Indonesia
    Don't think Darwin has any

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  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    The reason you think you have to spoonfeed me your thoughts is because your logic about what governments do is murky - even to you. You use meaningless insinuations (such as "buying into") and invoke phrases you don't understand (such as "separation of church and state") but never actually say in rational explicit terms what mandates you think these governments are actually violating.

    At the same time, there appears to be a lot of depth to your free-floating hatred of religion. This is not an appropriate place to unpack it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020

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