Everyday sexism

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by James R, Dec 7, 2020.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Yep. Just like having Hot Wheels as children is responsible for the number of vehicle deaths today. We all got desensitized to crash-ups, right?

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  3. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    A-Man to that... an its been a bumpy ride at times... but others including me have learned from Bells in particular on thred topics like this... hopefully a couple of others here will soon join in.!!!
    Bless you... an I wish you susceptibility to enlightenment.!!!
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Unlikely. Writers write shows that will be popular with people - so they need to resonate with contemporary morals/humor/frustrations.
    Right. But Aussies haven't actually gone Mad Max just because of those movies.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    Two completely different things that are both fed by an underlying disrespect for women.

    They are not comparable.

    And it's not "hyper friendliness or over familiarity".

    It's day to day sexism and it is so prevalent and ingrained in society that people do it without batting an eye.

    All that was asked was to consider how the other may feel about being addressed that way and to perhaps refer to them by their name that is usually on their name tag. And to leave the pet names for people we know, are close to, etc.

    The utter rubbish you and paddoboy have come out in response to a suggestion that perhaps curbing your behaviour in public towards women who do not know you has been astonishing.. From your ridiculous 'white man' is worse than being called a nigger to now this:

    As a woman, let me just say, that is so offensive and fucked up.

    Don't dare hide behind your age, your sense of entitlement that is so bad that you think you suffer because you are a white man and woe is you and the privilege you built and expect to uphold.

    The colour of your skin, your sex, your age is absolutely no excuse for this kind of reasoning or lack thereof.
     
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  8. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    I go to a shop several times a week and on the weekend a lady in her 70's usually does the weekend shifts, her daughters do the weekday shifts and she probably owns the shop. She doesn't wear a name tag and always calls every customer 'luv' or 'luvvey'.

    What do you, in your 'enlightened' state of mind, consider the best way to stop this intolerable (to you at least) behavior?
     
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  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You are entitled to your opinion even though you are entirely incorrect.

    Secondly you now seem to think that I call folk by names that are too familiar...I don't and have pointed that out such that you must be more than totally aware of my actions and I suggest that simply shows yourc inability to make subtle distinctions in any area on this matter. I don call folk love, sweety, dear, or bro and the only reason I call my aboriginal mate who hangs at the super market seeking folks spare change "man" is because that is how we speak to each other, I dont offend him and he does not offend me...

    To say I disrespect women is an unsupported lie. You should try dealing with individuals and not your goto stereo type ... why don't you ask around and find out from people who interact with me....did you miss where I mentioned how I have been helping women for over fifty years..it is just so wrong for you to say that ..you have not a thing to suggest it and everything I point out I actually care and have been active all my life...you just hate white males and I am one...that is wrong Bells.

    I have already agreed with you on most of the matter and yet you now wish to tar with the same brush you insist using when you take a racist sexist swipe at every white male on the planet which again displays your inability to be in any way rational in your assesment of my most reasonable assertions. As I said white male is sexist and racist and if you want proof just google it and assess the context in which the word is used.
    Tell me that is not it's prime use.

    And you , I expect, can say that because of your self appointed roll as judge of all things.

    So tell me given there is in the situations we are talking about..the habits of old people..that exhibit no malice can you call their behaviour anything more than friendliness..it certainly is not hateful is it and at most all we have is new norms trying to replace habits of many years...and yet here you are prepared to judge ..well you are not judging are you because your verdict is predetermined...deny that.

    To you there can be no good people amongst the bad and no bad people amongst the good...
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Day to day sexism is an unreasonable stretch...anyways who are you to decry sexism when you say to an old man ..grow a set...I guess that's the thing with you folk who are happy to judge others... its a do as I say thing with you not do as I do..so tell me is calling someone love or in the case of my recent contact calling a man sweety worse than, or not at all equal to a moderator saying to a member..grow a set...well here's your options now ..admit you were wrong and admit there is a grave gap between the two or your credibility is less than zero.

    I know the practice is ingrained in society and I also think folk don't stop and think it may be taken as disrespectful but know this rather than get people on side with rationally pointing such out calmly the heaping of abuse and being a bully destroys all hope of sending your message.

    I remind you what you complain about is driven by friendliness..do you see that?

    And it is the norm in many towns, suburbs and villages ... it will die out with the folk who use it...a lot of the valid PC messages are disregarded because of the judgmental attitude that accompanys them and the silly way they are applied.

    So let's deal with females calling me sweety...I don't like familararity particularly but I don't get bent over it ...do you think I should have used the opportunity to say to that woman who helped me look for a plumb pudding..now hold on..calling me sweety is sexist and basically you are a bad person promoting sexism...if you were there what would you have said..probably to me suck it up and grow a set no doubt...you can't preach one thing and act the opposite and your interaction with both me and Paddo just drips with malice..it is pretty clear you do not like either of us in the least..well of course you won't we are white males after all.

    Yes and I have already agreed upon this and if you approached Paddo in a less than abusive and bullying manner you probably would get some concession from him...and if you did not it is at that point that you should realise you should avoid being judgemental..old saying.speak your truth clearly and quietly...

    Now there you go..I don't call folk by familar terms..women or men...your inability to retain that detail as a fact simply shows the broad brush you use to paint your white males...and every time you do it to me I will remind you that you are failing to remember the facts...

    I am all for educating the folk who are malicious and disrespectful but not so much telling old men they don't understand a situation, at which you are not present that you know, that you have judged him and you find him guilty..sure you could be right but where you get hung up badly is that you could be wrong..add to that your failure to accept different folks different strokes goes on such that you stick to a dogmatic judgemental line is just plain wrong...

    So that is set in stone despite my qualification of what I said...did you read what I said later? It's poor form as now you are basically saying I said something that I have withdrawn...As I said I put it the wrong way and ordinarily I won't even use the N word..you did read what I said..if not please read it and proceed from there.


    Why don't you now go with what I finally said..it would be like you saying grow a set..or pair..which did you say..no matter..I would like to think in a quieter moment you would have been sorry you said such in the heat of the moment....


    Please don't swear I find it offensive and there is no need for profanity.

    So you missed my point that calling someone love is no where near the problem of deaths from domestic violence. If my way of being dramatic to draw attention to that fact was offensive then I appologise.

    Let me start again...

    First there is a great deal that needs to change in our society and the lack of respect for women finally manifests in domestic violence and the death of many women..over one per week in Australia..not that you would know...my point is there may be something to be gained attacking the old folk who are too familiar but perhaps we could address the corner stones of our culture..religion and Hollywood.

    Now the church tells folk that the woman should obey the man and no doubt he thinks that God puts him up a rung or two on women..well that is obvious...Hollywood certainly portrays women in a terrible light..as sex objects mainly..just a body it would seem..now those things give us a pointer to the problem and it tells me the problem is not old folk calling folk luv or sweety and about all just being plain friendly..but your mantra is so hate driven you want to nail that terrible white sexist male..well go look for your hollywood white male writers and producers..go look for your white male prients and ministers who recite morality from two thousand plus years ago...

    Instead of abusing me and Paddo why don't you address domestic violence and our violent culture that dictates lack of respect and that you never say sorry. I say sorry when I am wrong, I avoid fights and did so when I was younger..the other person had to throw the first punch .

    I suffer lots of pain because I am near cripple and checking out old people's homes because I can no longer look after myself they say. Does not make me happy..it is not easy seeing all you have built going to be swapped for a room someplace with strangers.

    I am not saying the majority of white people don't have it good, heck we are in Australia most everyone has it pretty good... you miss the point re white male..it is a generalisation used by folk with hate dripping from their lips..now they may have good reason to hate white people or males but it's that hate that makes them no better than the people they complain about..like it or not in most contexts white male is indeed racist and sexist and hateful...it's the racist, sexist and hatefulness of all these inequities and that stands out and just because it's your side that is racist, sexist and hateful does not excuse it any more than those who fly the confederate flag won't have it that the flag is hateful and racist...

    If you don't see that you are no better than them.

    Well happily we end on a note that we agree upon...I am not upset being called white or male but I am upset that the term is used in a hateful context and that hate is directed at me because of my sex and colour..that is wrong...and that is the point... if you want to get anywhere you don't make the same mistakes as your opposition...if the colour of your skin or your sex should not enter into things than it is clear that we can agree that the term white male need not be used.

    I hope you had a nice Christmas.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    Nothing.

    She knows her customers and they are clearly comfortable with how she addresses them, regardless of their sex.

    And if they are not, they are in a position to tell her otherwise.

    You do understand the difference in power dynamic here, yes?

    Paddoboy, for example, targets very specific women with "love" or "luv".. Not managers.. And not people he deems to be middle aged.
    He only targets young women with these pet names. Young women who may feel they are in no position to rebuff him or ask him to please not do so. He won't do it to women who are older and in a position to tell him to cut it out.

    And he also won't call young male shop assistants in the same fashion. He calls them "mate".. Because they are of equal footing. "Love" though, is not, particularly when it's from an older man saying it to a very young shop assistant or bank clerk who is in no position and has no experience in dealing with that kind of behaviour from strange elderly men.

    And in that regard, it is specific, deliberate and sexist.
     
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Actually be stuffed if I will go into an old folks home I think going out partying may be best....which ever way it goes I won't be walking at the end of the night and I won't feel any pain.

    Maybe thats why I have been getting a little touchy...as I said having to trade it all for something you don't really want...the really silly thing is I mainly agree with Bells that respect for women needs to be fixed...still think it's Hollywood's fault mainly...look at the Fast and Furious franchise...apart from condoning bad driving behaviour it really shows the hero is basically most things we don't want in a human.
    And from what I can tell religion plays it's part basically ranking men above women...

    Maybe I am not reading the room..Bells you are not a Hollywood writer by any chance...a minister?

    Did not get to get out of bed today so that was a little disappointing...I may be a victim of the virus in so far as I should have gone to the hospital months ago but did not because of the virus so my legs got worse...I did not get the virus just did not want to go thru all the cross the border stuff or go anywhere really.

    These people who want assisted dieing are real sooks..heck one bottle of scotch will do it and I doubt if that would be unpleasant.
    I might give it a trail run just a half a bottle first.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It won't nor should it be stopped. It's simply normal every day banter between casual every day happenings.

    You know that's a lie Bells, so why do you persist?
    I don't target anyone...and any casual banter may include young, old, and of either sex.
    Are you that bereft of any argument that this is all you can stoop to?
    Or is this a case by you of believing throwing enough mud and some of it will stick?
    Either way this forum, nor you run my life, nor that of the average people I interact with.
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No wrong again...It's simply day to day casual banter, said by both sexes and most age groups, without a second thought, or the batting of an eye lid. Why should there be?
    And it has been repeated many times, that if any offence was detected, that such banter would cease and probable avoidance of that person in future.

    And neither is it any reason whatsoever to drop/ cease common everyday banter between consenting adults, young and old, men and women.
     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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  16. Bells Staff Member

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    Your words. I quoted your words directly.

    You don't address managers that way or people with seniority. You go for the young shop assistants. Those who cannot refuse and have to put up with whatever behaviour you display.

    And that's what is telling with you.

    Every single "story" we have been subjected to has been you targeting much younger women, in lower level positions in the course of their employ.
    I have not changed my stance or argument about this paddo. At all. Not the first time you tried to argue about this crap, nor any time since then.

    Is that why you don't refer to the manager as "love"?

    Oh sorry.. "middle age boss"..?

    You refer to men as "mate", which translates to someone on equal footing as you.. "Love", when you make sure to only target young women in lower positions of employment is demeaning and sets a particular tone. After you recounted your "excuse me love, where do you hide the extra virgin olive oil?" to the young shop assistant and everyone choked back their disgust, Wegs made a very apt point about your approach:

    It's not day to day banter to sidle up to a young female shop assistant and ask her where she's hiding the "extra virgin olive oil". It's goddamn creepy when it's coming from a man of advanced years.

    She then followed it up with:
    You deliberately chose to ignore her then, just as you are choosing to ignore the points in this thread.

    Essentially, you are stomping your feet and demanding that your frankly creepy behaviour is the norm.

    And it's creepy because of who you target. Younger women who are not "middle aged bosses". Each story and boast, has been about young women who are not in any position of authority that you target with pet names.

    Why avoidance?

    Is using her name and treating her with respect that difficult for you? Or perhaps you'd feel embarrassed that you creeped her out that much? But you'll just keep doing it to other young women.

    Interesting choice of words.

    Someone who is forced and is at risk of losing her job if she refuses, is not consenting. She's just forced to comply or risk becoming unemployed.
     
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  17. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Bells I am sorry..when you said this the other day asking how I would like it said to my grand daughter I thought you were making it up but now I gather it is something that Paddo said? Well I can't recall my reply the other day but I say that I certainly do not approve. Perhaps you could provide a link for me.
    Alex
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Well quote them now, again.
    First lie: I don't "go" for anyone, unless I need assistance and ask the first available person, man or woman, young or old.
    It's your own "telling" that needs be examined.
    Lie 2: The Bank Teller was 45ish probably older....the old woman asking me to allow her in front of the queue as she only had one item was 70ish and had a walking frame. I believe I made that pretty clear. Desperation times Bells?

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    What you need to learn Bells, is that the extremes on both sides of the political spectrum, are just that extreme and mostly will be rejected.
    And my stance on this will never change until I am confronted by anyone, male or female, young or old, that objects.
    When I have cause to need a manager, I'll address them the same way...but hold your horses, another story coming up!

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    Lie 3:
    Firstly there was no sidling up, secondly, she took me to where the oil was, without any problem, other then what you would like to think existed, to support your little futile crusade. Secondly, she was the only shop assistant within range .
    My only labelling of members on this forum are those arseholes that like to insult and preach, and those that debate with some civility and decorum and its a pleasure to debate with, even if in disagreement. Wegs is in the second category.
    I have not ignored wegs and have conversed with her twice from memory.

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    Funny, that's what I believe you are doing...stomping your feet that is, along with some hand wringing!

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    Lie 4:
    No one is ever targeted, and certainly no boasting, simply examples of everyday banter between people, men and woman, young and old, as opposed to your own crusade.
    I said "probable" avoidance Bells. Answer, I'm not sure...depends on the circumstances and the degree of reaction.
    Lie 5:
    Already answered. Perhaps you are going for a record?
    Is it? Nonsense again, and since you were not there, you have no idea of anything other then what I have told you, and even then refuse to get it right.

    Most recent interaction....
    Stopped buy a Police breathalyser yesterday morning.
    30ish something female Officer and young male Officer, asked me had I been drinking. Me: Last drink Christmas day mate and just a belly full of kava last night: Female Officer: What's kava mate?
    Me: It's a local traditional Fijian drink but its not alcoholic Luv. Her: [smiling] OK, what I want you to do is count to ten through this detector. ME: dua, rua, tolu, va, lima.[counting in Fijian] Her:[laughing] On your way, a zero reading, take it easy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,534

    Let me say that in the first instance, re the above 60 Minutes account, I was actually horrified by the holding up of Trump's head apparently bloodied in Tomato sauce. I'm not real convinced that was called for.
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    You can't look at the previous page?

    Your words:

    Again, you admitted you do not refer to middle aged bosses, nor do you find such "banter" appropriate in the workplace..

    While ignoring the fact that you are forcing such banter in their workplace.

    Still much younger than you.

    In her workplace.

    As Wegs pointed out in that thread way back when, that your behaviour is flirting. These young women are trying to do their job and you force your flirting on them because you know they cannot refuse. And then you boast about it online. It's not banter. When an old dude walks up to a young shop assistant in a supermarket and asks her where she's hiding the extra virgin olive oil, that's not every day banter. These women are more than half your age, complete strangers to you and they are trying to do their job.

    It is not appropriate.

    And what you need to learn is that you objectify these much younger women and diminish them to "love" or pet names in the course of their employ and if they dare express displeasure, you are the type to contact management. You flirt with them, at your age! And you expect them to flirt back and act as though they enjoy it and they are forced to.

    Is it really that hard, do you really consider it an extreme, to not objectify women like this? It's not a matter of stance. You pick and choose who you address this way. You admitted yourself you would not do it to someone who was middle age and in a senior position. You target the women who are literally not allowed to call you a perve and tell you to bugger off.

    The irony is that you crack the absolute shits when people refer to you as pet names (as we have experienced), but you have no qualms in doing it to women, and doing it in a manner that diminishes them and their role in the course of their employ.

    You're an older dude coming up to a young woman and asking her where she's hiding the extra virgin olive oil. That, by every definition, is sidling up to her. The moment you asked her where she was hiding the extra virgin olive oil.. You became the creep.

    Because that is her job!
    Because she is not allowed to tell you that it was a problem.
    I linked you studies and reports of how these young women have to swap name tags because of how older men sleaze onto them.
    And of all manners that you could have asked her, you went with the creep one.

    I would strongly suggest you get a mirror and stare long and hard into it. Given you are one of the people report the most for abusive and offensive behaviour..

    Wegs is too polite. Trust me, she was probably as creeped out as the rest of us by your behaviour.

    The moment she pointed out how your behaviour was flirting and not appropriate, you stopped responding to her queries, because she wanted to know why you did it.

    You only do it to the women who can't tell you that you make them uncomfortable or that your approach is not appropriate.

    You don't refer to men as "love". You refer to them as "mate". Men who are equal to you.. "Love" is a pet name. You are using that in her place of employment, where you are in a position of power as the customer.

    Consider what the response would be if an older gentleman walked up to your young granddaughter and asked her where she was hiding the extra virgin olive oil..

    It's one of the reasons my father was adamantly against my ever working in retail while in school and at uni. Because he did not want me to have to deal with that kind of rubbish from men like you.

    Oh look, more examples.

    Goodo!
     
  22. Bells Staff Member

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    Here:
    You're saying you would not approve of an older man asking your granddaughter where she was hiding the extra virgin olive oil? You would not approve of how he noted how young and pretty she was in the process? How likely do you think he was to have behaved the same way if the shop assistant were male?

    Keep in mind that paddoboy won't address management in such a fashion. He clearly says this level of banter is for the shop assistants (who risk losing their jobs if they tell him that it's creepy).

    That kind of behaviour is why shop assistants are swapping name tags with their colleagues to try to curb the harassment and creepy behaviour.
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Except I didn't sidle up to her as you claimed. Yes, she was young and pretty...so? I see young pretty women everyday as well as older attractive women?

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    And yes, I wanted extra virgin olive oil, the only oil we ever use.
    Wrong again Bells and another lie as I already pointed out. I confronted the first shop assistant available, but of course those plain ordinary normal facts don't fit your crusade, do they Bells?
    Is that right? Any reference? and how prevalent is this action?

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