Evolution v Intelligent Design; Should we really teach evolution?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Norsefire, Aug 20, 2008.

  1. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    Since the mind is volnerable to hallucinations, hysteria, mass hysteria, optical illusions, auditory illusions, insanity, and personal generation of powerful hallucinogens within the pineal gland, then personal anecdotal reports are not reliable evidence for anything. That's why such reports are not trusted in a court of law. All they prove is that the mind does various things.
     
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  3. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    The problem is that you, spidergoat, immediately dismiss such ideas off hand without even giving them consideration.
     
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  5. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have any evidence worthy of consideration? The concept of the soul is a religious interpretation of subjective experiences. There isn't anything about these experiences that make a soul an obvious explanation.
     
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  7. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    What have you offered for consideration ? Throughout this thread you have done nothing but make statements based on speculation. Why do you expect your claims to be taken seriously if you can offer no evidence ?Repeating your wild assertions won't make them true.

    What you need is a course of instruction at James Randi's academy.

    PS :You have yet to mention ectoplasm, ghosts, disembodied voices, astral projection in any detail to , the Tarot, Palmistry, astrology and lots of other neglected "sciences"
     
  8. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    I suppose the testimony of countless people and the afterlife hypothesis and study of the spirit particle isn't evidence enough?
     
  9. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    Oh Christ!
     
  10. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Testimony is NOT evidence.
     
  11. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Sure. But when it's so widespread, and even when there is an actual study of DMT and the afterlife hypothesis, that definitely is enough to warrant the idea serious consideration.
     
  12. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Have you actually read any statements on eye witness reliability?
    People are just about the least reliable method of gathering information available.
     
  13. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    I know and you're right, especially in cases of law; but as I said, these things have been happening for ages to a large number of people.

    What does that prove? That SOMETHING is happening. The question is, what? There are two theories: the dying brain hypothesis and the afterlife hypothesis. I think the latter makes more sense.
     
  14. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    No, slight difference: they have been CLAIMED to have been happening.
    Like all the claims of telepathy, psi-powers, ghosts and all the other mythological crap that cannot be shown to have a factual basis.

    No it shows that humans, all being human, suffer from much the same delusions...

    So why doesn't EVERY person that nearly dies experience it?
     
  15. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Wow, if you really can't differentiate....well, it's not worth it. Atheist stubbornness.
    Rofl, delusions? Not when the people can ACTUALLY ROAM ABOUT AND KNOWINGLY OBSERVE THINGS. That immediately disproves your ridiculous delusion theory.
    "nearly dying" isn't dying. NDE's are after a person is clinically dead and comes back to life.
     
  16. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    It's me that's differentiating.
    Should we accept ALL mass claims as worthy of consideration?

    Erm, when people AHVE THE ILLUSION OF ROAMING ABOUT ETC.

    Hardly.

    NDE = Near Death Experience.
    That's what I mean by "nearly dying"
     
  17. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    Norsefire,

    Thanks to neuroscience we know something about brains. On the other hand we know nothing about a putative afterlife, so until some form evidence comes to light we can safely neglect it. We cannot be expected expect to chase every will-o'-the-wisp that someone brings to out attention.

    When you agree that witnesses are unreliable, "especially in cases of law", you are agreeing that witnesses are unreliable, which is what was suggested by Oli. The law is not a special case.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2008
  18. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, yes. Consideration being the key word. Mass claims of telepathy are always moot, or cannot be demonstrated. The afterlife, on the other hand, has been experienced by people of all cutlures, backgrounds, ages, races, health, etc.
    No, you misunderstand. people who have NDE's can actively roam about and RECALL (therefore disproving illusions) what they see.
    Most people who die don't come back...

    What does neuroscience have to do with spirit? Psychologists and neuroscientists are studying the existence of the soul.
     
  19. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Much like telepathy, ghosts etc.

    How does it disprove hallucination?
    They have the impression that it's happening while it's happening and tell about it afterwards...
    Is a dream an actual event since I can reacll moving about in my dream?
    What makes you think you can't recall hallucinations?

    Granted: but NOT ALL those who do have the NDE experience.
     
  20. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Telepathy will become possible with the advent or neurotechnologies, I'm sure.

    And guess what? People actually DO give consideration to ghosts and telepathy. When you have something happening all over the world to all sorts of people on a widespread scale, that means something's up. I'm not saying it means it's true, but SOMETHING is happening.

    They move about in the REAL world, and can recall events that REALLY happened to people far away. This has been confirmed.
    I'm sure most do, it's just they think people will think they are crazy

    Regardless, if you say there is no afterlife or reincarnation, you're saying there is nothing beyond the material world. I highly doubt that.

    Not to mention many NDE accounts are surprisingly similar, with people going to a "heaven" and some going to a "hell". How do you explain that?
     
  21. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    That's correct.

    Nothing supernatural has ever been shown to exist. So, all natural explanations must first be ruled out. Consideration is reasonable, but that isn't really anything, just thinking about it. Upon consideration, the idea of a soul or spirit isn't confirmed by any evidence, so it remains an idea, just like bigfoot and the loch ness monster.
     
  22. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    But there's no scientific basis for it at the moment and nothing to suggest it's anything other than mass delusion or fraud.

    It's been studied for decades and has no real basis.

    Far away? Link please.

    Tut: I'm saying that what we have so far isn't sufficient to state that there is an afterlife or something beyond the material world.

    Humans, being human, are all subject to the same influences and delusions.
     
  23. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    But an afterlife isn't supernatural. Let me go through this logically:

    People die
    Naturally, we question what happens after people die
    We come to two conclusions:
    Nothing, and they are simply dead
    They go somewhere, or there is something beyond death.

    And again with the "ruling out"; that doesn't apply to something that is UNKNOWABLE. It's ignorant and stupid to claim you know EXACTLY what happens after death is you aren't dead.

    Bigfoot and the loch ness monster are entirely different; they aren't unknowns. As in, they CAN be proven or disproven, since they are supposedly in our material world.

    I wouldn't say that; I think people think that because our neurons can communicate, maybe our minds can too
    They are examining the unknown; just like UFOlogists.
    Just check the website I mentioned earlier
    Not to mention, since we are conscious we MUST have a soul. Non living material isn't going to suddenly create consciousness. It can create connections, but SOMETHING has to be perceiving these connections, and that something would be our souls
    Delusions? Why are you saying the afterlife is impossible?
     

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