Evolution v Intelligent Design; Should we really teach evolution?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Norsefire, Aug 20, 2008.

  1. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    11,888
    Thousands of years of claims and no proof, or even demonstrations...

    With equal results: nothing.

    I have: as previously stated every single claim given turns out to be completely false if you actually follow the links.
    Some of the links directly contradict the statement in their first line...
    The guy who set up that web site is liar and a charlatan.

    Doesn't follow.

    No: it could be our consciousness.

    I'm not saying it's impossible.
    I'm saying that so far delusion is a better explanation than souls and afterlives.
    And has more evidence to support it.
     
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  3. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Ok....
    Actually, you're wrong. Scientists have researched the mind and telepathy, and have effectively disproven it. UFOlogists research UFO's and can find certain evidence, etc
    OK, find any NDE website
    As I said, non living material isn't going to suddenly, in seperate bits, form a consciousness. Something needs to PERCEIVE the consciousness.
    More evidence? :roflmao:

    It has NO evidence whatsoever. And how do you determine what a "better" explanation is?

    Oh please.....once you are on your deathbed, I guarantee you you'll believe there is an afterlife.
     
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  5. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    That's what I meant by nothing.

    UFOlogists find what they call evidence, which doesn't stand up when examined by science.

    Tch, too much grabage to trawl through considering the first 30-odd turned out to factually incorrect.

    So conclude consciousness is an emergent property of living material at certain level of complexity...

    Like the fact that DMT is known to be created in the brain under extreme stress for one.
    Like the fact that other psychedelics can give more or less the same overall effects...
    It accords with the known data without postulating extra, unproven, phenomena like souls...

    I most sincerely hope not.
    I hope I stay true to myself and the evidence.
     
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  7. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    ID is a religious concept. That when you say the word god you mean.. something other than god is neither here nor there to that fact. Once again though, you could set up an "its possible" class and fill students heads with all kinds of possibilities. It is still not science.

    Your concept isn't history so no, don't teach it in history class. Your concept isn't language so no, don't teach it in language class. Your concept isn't science... work the rest out for yourself.

    Even if I give you this one, the answer would still be no given that there's nothing to teach - you've already made it abundantly clear that there are no details and can't be any details. There's simply nothing to talk about.

    Now it's "life on earth"? A minute ago it was the entire universe. Please, get your thoughts in order first.

    To answer the question, I find it completely baseless. There is nothing to suggest that the universe was created by some form of alien, god, marshmallow man or anything else you would care to call "intelligent". Do note that I don't find the notion itself ridiculous, just worthless. This applies to many things including the Loch Ness monster. I don't find the concept ridiculous - some big creature that swims in water, it happens. Without so much as a shred of evidence and without so much as any basic details there is simply nothing to discuss on the matter.
     
  8. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    3,674
    Does it? You mean we need to be aware, that we are conscious? That's what awareness or consciousness is, though; by definition awareness is aware of itself.
    All sentient animals must be aware of when they're awake - how else would they function?
     
  9. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    53,781
    Non-living material didn't suddenly develop consciousness. It was a gradual process of development, re: evolution.

    If something is truly unknowable, then stop claiming to know it (that the afterlife and the soul exist).
     
  10. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2008
  11. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    That isn't "nothing", it's been disproven. Therefore we KNOW it's impossible, at least, without the aid of technology.
    Evidence is evidence; they find videos, materials, etc

    That's evidence, it's just not evidence to suggest alien craft. Just evidence that something is there. Not all UFOlogists believe that the UFO's are alien craft; some are skeptics.

    Not at all. Group NDE's and the ability to recall facts disproves your hallucination theory.
    That doesn't make sense; non conscious material, no matter the level of complexity, can't form a conscious mind. I believe that our soul acts through our brain, in order for us to be conscious in this reality. And this can be supported with certain quantum consciousness theories.

    For instance, certain psychologists believe that consciousness is an emergent property of the universe, not of the brain. Therefore the mind can exist independent of the brain.
    See above. Please note, when I say "soul" I am referring to our consciousness, our minds.

    And again, NDE's can occur in all sorts of people, sometimes with multiple people at once.
    Why not?

    ID isn't religious. Imagine that there is no such thing as religion. Nobody has a clue what "religion" means. And then say that a scientist suggests that our universe might have been created. In such a situation, in which you would not have any sort of bias, you likely would, while not necessarily believing the theory, give it more attention. Also, science class would be the best class to teach a scientific concept; after all, if we can teach nonsense like the big bang, surely we can teach ID?
    It falls under science, because it attempts to explain the world.

    The concept is enough to talk about.

    ID is both a theory for Human origins and Universal origins. It is a logical enough possibility for both situations, although for the former, we (as you said) have "proven" evolution. I still think there is a likeliness that our own evolution might have been guided.

    The problem is we are dealing with the origins of the universe, so of course we can't have much in the way of evidence (whether ID or natural beginning). Also, you say "nothing to suggest"? We exist in this universe; that is what it is based on. The question is, why, and how do we exist in this universe?

    And it is most certainly not baseless; I've already explained, it's quite natural to suppose that our universe was intentionally created, as much as it is to suppose that it was not. Frankly, we don't know, and both are real and equal possibilities.

    I'm not, it's YOU that said "there is no afterlife". Have you died? No? OK.

    I also simply don't think complexity leads to consciousness. Because no amount of complexity is going to create a "self".
    I think the brain is complex, but something (the "soul) perceives and uses the complexity, in order to be sensually aware.

    i.e, the soul perceives the brain.
     
  12. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    You can't have a negative: there is nothing to the claims.

    Yup, but evidence of what? Not UFOs, as the scientific investigations show...

    Nope, because mass hallucination is fairly well documented.

    Until the existence of a soul is proven it would seem that that is exactly what happens.

    So show me how a non-material soul connects with a material body.

    And certain psychologists are fervent UFO believers. Doesn't make them right. Mind separate from the brain? Riiiight.

    As can hallucination.

    Because if I change my mind at the last minute out of fear rather than evidence I'd be betraying myself.

    Nice idea, except religion DOES exist and all of the proponents (and originators) of ID are religious fundamentalists.

    No, ID is not science because it reaches the point where it says: this was done by something we cannot and will never understand and it is useless to speculate about it.
    Therefore science becomes a waste of time since it was "done" rather than "happened according to knowable rules"...
    ID negates science.

    No, it's a non-thinking cop-out.

    If our evolution WAS guided then any investigation into evolution is a waste of time.

    Nope, you can't say they equally possible without knowing more about both possibilities.

    Can't find where I said it but append the words "to the best of the veidence so far". Better?

    That's your take.

    Soul not proven.

    So what does consciousness do?
     
  13. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    5,553
    Norsefire,

    You have had a good run for your money and more attention than your posts deserve. Just look at where you have got to:

    " I think the brain is complex". Now that's what I call a revelation ! Good of you to tell us.

    "I think...the soul perceives the brain". Tell us what you know rather than what you think ! In any event what makes you thinkt here is a soul and, as I mentioned in a previous post, you will have to explain how it interacts with the brain.

    You are posting pure nonsense. Time you put this topic to bed.
     
  14. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I think we waste a lot of time on this subject...as a society. In my humble opinion it is really quite simple, evolution is the active hand of God in our world...continuing and perfecting his/her work that began eons ago. For God's creations exist not in one, two or three dimensions of space but in multiple dimensions including time. God's creation is not static, but a work in progress.
     
  15. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    11,888
    Nice.
    But opinions count for nothing on Sci.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  16. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    No one dies. That is, no one experiences death. The body is the experiencing structure. When someone is brain dead, it doesn't even matter if we pull the plug on their body, that is a medical and scientific fact. Death is the end of any experiencing. Without the body there is no memory, no choice, no personality, nothing left. Prove to me otherwise if you can.
     
  17. kmguru Staff Member

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    11,757
    I could buy that....the problem happens when people make up stuff in the name of God....
     
  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,908
    Thanks Oli. and you are correct KM. All too often people things up and attach them to God for a variety of reasons.
     
  19. buckybeam Registered Member

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    272
    first it truely amazes me how this thread has evolved.....
    haha

    ive been trying to keep up lurking behind the scenes.

    one, i believe in a god.
    two, i do not have blind faith
    three, because i believe in a god he must have made me to question the world/universe around me
    four, that means just because i contemplate a god's existence doesn't mean that i contradicting myself

    that said i have free realm to discuss things either way and im not hypocritical. this is what i believe.

    ok....?

    new subject
    forget about having a soul because its how god made us. could the concept of the soul be derived from the fact that it is hard for us to fathom that we have not always existed and will not exist forever. how is it that i am me. it is a certain human trait because every society has come up with a reason as to where from or where to or both. i think to say that you are certain that death is the end and life was the begining is in denial of the biology that makes us human. sure you may be right but you would have to work hard to convince yourself of that "truth". other parts of our biology are far easier to control. we can stop ourselves from violence, infidelity and a whole assortment of biological traits that 20,000 years ago would have been the norm. but evidence suggests that 20,000 years ago, we believed in an afterlife. so i think that for some reason the brain works this way. it may be an ego trait. it may be a byproduct of intelligence. i curious if we were to create AI would it come to a similar conclusion, the concept of the soul?
     

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