Evolution vs. creation

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Snappy, Jun 22, 1999.

  1. dumaurier Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    171
    Xeno writes:
    I try to look at things in general perspective. However, when I sometimes try and explain something, people tend to get confused on the matter because I don't use the right words. Instead of using the word "energy," I will use the term, "essence." Essence is energy, but a spiritual, non-physical form of it.

    Dumaurier responds:
    I understand what you mean. It is perhaps why we should weigh our words carefully before uttering them. But then, in many cases, even though we use the proper words people still won't understand us. It is sad, but true.

    Xeno writes:
    As for the 4th dimension, I sort of confused myself as I was thinking and jabbered on about stuff I did not intend to talk about. What I really wanted to talk about was hell. What do you conceive hell to be? In my opinion, there is no furnace that is the destined place where sinners go to. Hell is rather a state of being that comes and goes. Hell is always with you - when you live and when you die. Hell is the state of sufferment. I.E. - imagine your soul ripped away from you; now you have none. Imagine that now that you don't exist and will never exist and that you will always exist in utter darkness shut away from any dimension and reality. That is the greatest form of suffering one could ever comprehend thus that would be eternal hell.


    Dumaurier responds:
    I don't see a "furnace" in hell, neither, Xeno. And i do agree fully that it is a condition, a state of being. But i believe that this hellish state of being could only be in this world and not the next, for if you closely examine the Scriptures of the main religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i, etc.) you'll find that when they speak of "hell" they refer to it as being far from God, and "heaven" is proximity to God. This sounds a little absurd, of course, for how can one be far or near of the Creator of this great universe? Surely Scripture means otherwise. Well, according to my understanding, i see it in the following way:

    First, God is representative of all virtues or qualities (patience, tolerance, love, meekness, generosity, magnanimity, etc.). By way of analogy, we can say that God is like the sun; we only know the physical sun by its effects, such as heat, light and the benefits it bestows on all living things. Likewise, we can only know a spiritual God through His spiritual effects. So we say that God represents all virtue, all qualities. He is the essence of all these virtues. Now, if you turn to God, this means you are allowing the benefits of Gods to mirror forth and reflect in your being. If you turn to the sun, your body will benefit and feel it s warmth, see the light, and so on. So, God is all virtue and by turning to Him your soul, your life, reflects His Beauty, His spiritual radiance.

    Now, if you turn away from God, you cannot possibly benefit from His Bounty. You are deprived of His Beauty, His virtues. If you turn away from God you must turn to other things because man needs to focus, to endeavour. In brief, man has a need to keep busy by focusing his mind, his heart on something. The qualities inherent in the object of a person's focus, consequently, will reflect within the person focussing. Thus, if your mind and heart are focussed on capitalism and the love of money, then greed, covetousness, selfishness, will be the things that will influence you and you will reflect these in your life, in your actions and dealings with others. If your life is focussed on art, your life will reflect the virtues of that art. If you focus on God, His virtues will reflect through you.

    So, to me hell is a turning away from God and living for the world alone. It is a condition where the individual is deprived of virtues, lives a life devoid of patience, tolerance, generosity, kindness, compassion, respect, consideration of others. Being deprived of such qualities can only harm a person for such qualities are meant to be practised by everyone in relationships. Selfishness and arrogance are two of the greatest evils in a contemporary society where individualism is promoted and encouraged. To be selfish is to live in hell because selfishness is the antithesis of unselfishness. Unselfishness insinuates compassion, kindness, consideration of others, respect, and so on. So, living a life without virtue is hell and turning to the Source of all virtues is "heaven."

    Xeno writes:
    Hell can also be emotional. Pain, anguish, and self-pity are states of hell because they put you in a state of suffering.

    Dumaurier responds:
    Yes, of course this is so.


    Xeno writes:
    as for the 4th dimension, you move into it and a reality is generated for you depending on a number of variables associated with your physical existance. Religion can play a big role here and fits in with the theory of the appearence God makes. Basically, the 4th dimension is what you want it to be. If one believes that he or she will go to hell after physical death, then that is what happens. If one believes that the afterlife will be clouds,
    then clouds it shall be. My belief is that the 4th dimension is a cross between the 3rd and 5th. You're dead, but not quite with God yet.

    Dumaurier responds:
    This is an interesting theory. Of course, it's rather difficult dealing with labels ("4th dimension," etc.) if we aren't accustomed to them and don't have a grounding as to their exact meanings as you use them. I'm not sure about any "dimension" but i believe that individuals who do not take the pains to develop their soul here, on this physical plane of existence, will go to the other world handicapped, so to speak. It reminds me a little of a baby in the womb. If its members are not all developed there it is born deformed in this world. Well, i like to think that we are in the "womb" of the material world and when we put away this physical frame our soul is born into a spiritual world (you may call this another dimension, if you like).

    The spiritual worlds of God are all good for God is good. Hell, therefore, cannot be a place after the grave for God does not recognize "bad" in the hereafter.

    Nice talking to you


    ------------------
    dumaurier
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,329
    Is "God" a part of the universe, or, as its creator, is God somehow intrinsically connected to life? A chaos game played with a pen and a die (make a triangle, roll the dice, create lots of pretty triangles inside) illustrates a notion that chaos, when contained, will come to resemble its constraints. If, then, God is everything, as so many undereducated faithfuls like to assert, then truly God makes humanity in Its own image. The flip-side here is that, being constrained by the universe, nothing we think can exceed it; it is a tenuous argument that therefore, anything a human brain can conceive, no matter how paradoxical, nihilist, or dysfunctionally shortsighted, is possible. Thus God Itself becomes possible, as does little grey men from Zeta Reticuli, warp travel, and all the wonderful things that mythology and science fiction have endowed unto our imaginations.

    So we come to the "Question". Is God part of the universe or is God extraneous to the universe? "Does God live in the universe and experience or outside it to watch and manipulate" is essentially the question; though the brevity of the phrase steals some of the idea's strength.

    To assume that God lives outside the universe is to accept that there is something outside it. (If the Earth itself was Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor, would a voyage to what would be North America be considered leaving the Earth?) I think it is paradoxical for God to live "outside" the universe. Whether God is nature itself, or the father of a religious and political zealot is important here because, if it is truly paradoxical to live outside the universe, then the omniscient, omnipresent force that is described as God must be the whole of nature. In this way I can picture a God that is everywhere and that administrates everything. Why? It is not some stern, "Thou shalt not" personage whose edicts drive naked hubris, but rather something that resembles Lucas' "Force".

    And if this is should ever be the case, then I would assert that arguing over believing in God, Heaven, and Hell is irrelevant. Under these conditions, it seems, God is not an answer but the question itself.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

    [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 04, 1999).]
     
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  5. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    But nature is physically deterministic, and mathematically predictable. What is the use of giving such an entity the title of God? (We might as well give that title to the Sun, or to the lightning bolts in a thunderstorm.)

    While one might surmise that all is God (ala Barkley and the somnambulists), there is no evidence to show this -- in particular the fact that merely describing the universe as God does not provide for divine intervention. Being rigidly governed by physical laws and demonstrating no complex behavior outside of them, the 'nature' at large is incapable of perceiving pleas, responding to them, or affecting us in any way that indicates intelligence. Furthermore, equating God to nature annihilates any prospects for afterlife. So really, you seem to only be putting a new label (God) on what has been physical reality all along.

    Unless, that is, you are truly supposing a Star Wars - like force that is unknown at present. In which case, yours is a mere guess just like that of any theist. And the existence of such force is no less paradoxical than existence of God -- because one still runs into the same infinite regression. For example, where did the force come from? What laws govern the behavior of the force, and what (outer?) medium generates those laws and thus contains the force? In other words, where is the 'edge' of reality, and what's beyond the edge?

    ------------------
    I am; therefore I think.
     
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  7. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    God is both physical and spiritual.
    You can think of God as our creator
    in one sense. However, God should
    be moreoverly seen as the ultimate
    form of existence in the universe.

    God is infinity, the state of existence
    in all space, all time, all reality,
    and all states of being at once.

    Thus that would mean God is the universe
    and that God has two general names:

    1)"I am."
    2)"Universe."

    However, there is no limit to the number
    of names that god can take on.

    -Dan
     
  8. generalhurrss Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    53
    Sorry to butt in here but that last post above me is somewhat wrong me thinks.
    God has one name it is Jehova and it is in the bible believe it or not.
    Sometimes I wonder if you religious twats know what your gabbering on about.

    [This message has been edited by generalhurrss (edited August 07, 1999).]
     
  9. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    Generalhurrs,
    I kind of exagerated on the names thing.
    However, it is stated in the bible...
    ... its somewhere in my brother's new
    testiment...
    ... anyway, I doesn't really matter.
    I'll just find it another time. As
    for the names of god, how can you say
    that god only has one name. Where does
    it say that god has only one name.
    Call god jehova if you must.
    I was reading the new testiment and
    it said something about god and the
    words "I am."
    As for the name of "Universe," what is
    so wrong about that? Give me a good enough
    answer and I'll be glad to say that
    you're right.
    As for my views and statements, no one
    has been able to disprove me so far.
    People have either added to it or
    changed a bit around - still the same
    idea however.
    Try to be open to new ideas. I'll be
    glad to consider you a friend if you're
    willing to be one.

    Take care,

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    -Dan
     
  10. generalhurrss Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    53
    Xeno/Dan,
    I shall give you the benefit of the doubt.
    Psalm chap83 ver18 is one example of thy name.
    As far as religion goes though, I opened my mind to the bible and saw a great many contridictions, maybe I should not have been so curious that way I would then believe anything, but alas, I believe not in any god or any religious argument as many believers tend to ignore the fact and reality of the scriptures, therefore, as some folk have said, these people are merely led by the evil that stands against this god, Satan be his name. He is said to lead people into false religion which stands at ninety percent of religious factions, probably. It helps if you can read between the lines of the scriptures, things become clearer and you realise then that there is no god so all arguments fail - an interesting book mind, don't get me wrong, the stories are quite outrageous. Add a few blasters and TIE fighters and it could have been a good sci-fi novel.
    I am a friend until thee calls me an enemy, my friend.
    Long live religion for it will keep the populous arguing.
     
  11. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    Realistically, one can believe in the
    teachings of both science and religion.
    One does not have to believe in one,
    but rather can choose to believe in both.
    There is no fault to that.

    The Devil is a biblical symbol used to
    catagorize the general negativity that
    exists in the universe.

    -----------------------------------------
    As for hell, it is a state of sufferment.
    -----------------------------------------
    Those above lines cover more than what
    the christian understanding of hell does.
    Generally, christians say that if you
    sin, you will go to hell. Of all places,
    they see hell as a place of fire and
    brimstone where deamons exist. The bible
    also tells that when you go to hell,
    you go there to suffer for eternity.

    Quote: "Eternal Suffering."
    Did you read that?

    Now that I've gone and said that, it's
    time for you to think from a different
    perspective.
    In truth, hell is not a place where you
    die and go to to suffer for eternity.
    Hell is not a place where you go to to
    get burned in fire and stabbed by
    naked men with pitchforks.

    Hell is the state of sufferment. That
    would mean that hell is no more than
    a state that you go through.
    Hell can be experienced through
    emotional or physical discomfort.

    When you die, you have no body; thus
    you have no brain which means that
    you cease to feel pain, see, smell,
    feel, hear, and taste.
    All that does remain is the soul;
    the essence; the lifeforce of God.
    That would also mean that cease to
    be negative.

    Also, if god is constantly pure and
    ultimately good, and our souls are of
    god, then how can one truly entirely
    be negative?

    Take a washable marker and color a part
    of your skin red, another part black,
    and another part green. When your skin,
    the dirtyness of the felt washes away
    and your skin in no longer unpure.

    -Dan
     
  12. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    As for Psam Ch.83 Verse18:

    Are you implying this to my judgement?
    Do you think that I think highly of
    myself? Do you conceive me to be
    conceited?

    If that is so, then you are wrong.
    Believe it or not, my belief in god
    is very relative to that verse.

    -------------------------------------
    "That they may know that You alone, whose
    name is the LORD, Are the Most High over
    all earth.

    -------------------------------------

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I have always stated that god was higher
    than any form in the universe and that
    god was the highest form of existence
    in the universe; a state of existence
    that no true being could ever reach.

    -------------------------------------

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    General, I think you and I had a
    case of typical misunderstanding.
    We both believe in the same general
    thing.

    -Dan
     
  13. Spook Registered Member

    Messages:
    4
    I would sincerly like to waste my time here arguing with all of you, but I have more important things to do.

    So here goes, okay you want to meet God, but that requires true faith, which most of you don't seem to have or want to have fine, I'll take this argument from the other perspective.

    Starting praying to Satan, thats right buy Ouija boards, Tarot Cards, the whole nine yards, Start cursing God, defaming holy imagery, whatever.

    If you are lucky you'll just go insane and scream at voices that aren't there.

    If you are not, you'll probably meet a demon, who would be more than happy to rip out your spirit, and drag you back to hell. Unless of course you quickly start believing in God, and manage to save yourself.

    Word of warning, an idoit much like yourselves, took me up on this offer. He is now a satanist, and his life is in shambles.

    I suppose I could do an astral projection, materialize myself while you sit at your computer and do this myself, but what would it prove, that and losing my soul.

    I could prove paranormal stuff in a lab, but that to borrow a quote "would make me the stupidiest rat in the most expensive cage"

    I suppose you'll just call me a freak, and say what a moron, no one can do that. That is okay usually when I show people they repress the memories so much that sometimes they forget that entire day of their lives.

    And you thought we didn't exist.

    Have a nice discussion, and a happy life.
    http://www.imagine-reality.com/forums/paranormal

    !@, !ys@lf, and I
     
  14. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    Spook,

    you calling me a moron!
    What kind of freak are you?

    -Dan

    ----------------------------------
    Sorry bout that, but that pissed me off.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    Spook,
    Listen...I used to teach sunday school..LMAO..but you know what??? I didn't
    believe then..I was caught in a whirl wind
    of freaks called christians. I bought into
    the lies ..the scams..ect... but I knew in
    my heart that it was nothing but bullshit.
    So why did I teach sunday school?? I guess
    because I had a heart for the kids there.
    I got along with them great.
    Seeee I tried God..if you want to call it that..thing is..he never answered...so how
    about that??????????? Know what it is like
    being a fool??? Well this god of yours that
    you choose to believe in made me out to be one... I bought in...but now I am wise!
     
  16. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    Flash,

    I am sorry that you feel a fool for being
    christian. I am christian. In christian
    ways of thinking, god works miracles in
    different ways. In what way were you
    expecting god to help you? truthfully,
    church makes people more positive and
    light-hearted. My brother had a real
    bad personality, but after going to
    church, he changed for the better.

    -Dan
     
  17. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    Flash,

    if you are as wise as you say you are,
    then tell me what you perception of
    god is (or was at the time).

    ------------------------------------------

    until then,
    this is the end of my post.

    -Dan
     
  18. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    well... Let's just say...there was nothing
    there... in my search..quest..whatever the
    heck it was... there was nothing.
    If god was real...if he wanted me..he could
    of had me. Guess he would of had to make
    himself known to me. The bible is not real..
    toooooooooooooo many contradictions... it
    doesn't add up.
    I am not saying I am sooo wise..but, I have
    read the bible. I reviewed it... analyzed it..and nothing adds up.
    If god is all that..if he is real..do you
    not think he would make himself known?
    How hard is that?
    I believe people want a savior ...someone
    to save them from this world..all the shit..
    makes it easier for them.
    Or..is god just selective with whom he wants???
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,329
    Boris, I apologize for letting so long pass:

    Right. I am applying the notion that God is everything literally. Why must we seek an anthropomorphic God? The only reason I mention Lucas is that "the Force is all around us". We interact with nature, period. It is a law of existence. A body affects the universe around it. Even if gravity is the only universally affective force ever discovered, so be it. The fact that such a thing exists speaks volumes about the nature of the universe.

    If we call the things we do not understand "God," much as superstition assigned the thunder and lightning and rain and every other natural event to religion, we can now name our God and give it the characteristics of the universe. We could likewise name our god and look infinitely inward, seeking every single biological process. If we regard the mysteries of our existence as such, then "God" is a question, not an answer.

    There needs be no personality, no special rules. The edge of reality is the edge of the universe. Give the Hubble team five years and, hey, they might tell you what's beyond.

    What is the social function of God? Anthropological? We hold on to the old ways by choice. We adhere to the old structure by choice. We choose to see what we're told to see when we look at God. And, frankly, just because we haven't seen the Summerland through a telescope doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Can you tell me--for sure--what happens after death, without having died first?

    One of the beautiful things about the universe is that if humanity existed until the end of time, we would never know everything there is to know about it. It is, truly, the eternal mystery. It is the limit, the end. It is, in its essence, everything God represents in the anthropological aspect.

    Remember that "God" is a subjective word. I undertand that no evidence exists to show that God is anything, somnambulent or otherwise. I think the part about "Being rigidly governed by physical laws . . . " assumes far too much about what we know of the "nature of things".

    Don't rush to make anything of the "force" or of "God". I like the idea of an interconnecting force, personally, but beside gravity I have yet to find a universal presence. We can never prove God, probably never see God. But we can see what God is to people, and how God affects human endeavor.

    Since I'm sure I'm redundant by now, I'll stop here. I think we're actually near agreement somewhere in there; if I'm missing a perspective, let me know.

    thx,

    [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 16, 1999).]
     
  20. Matt D Skeptic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    84
    Orgainsed religion is the largest cause of bigotry, hatred and war. Why did it take the Pope several weeks to find out if the contraceptive pill (odd, but valid example) was a sin? Surely a sin is a sin and does not need debating?? The Bible was written several hundreds of years AFTER Jesus. Bits have been added, changed, ignored, left out and distorted to suit current needs. The Vatican has probably the oldest manuscripts locked away - what are they afraid of? Scared everyone will find out we have been lied to all these centuries? Whole chapters are missing. Everything is so open to opinion and conjecture \ interpretation. Surely it should be the same? A simple single messege. Why so many sects - demoninations catholic hatred of proestants and vice versa. Who knows, the whole thing is corrupt and degrading. The sooner organised religion is abandoned the better.


    My opinion, disagree \ agree we are all being had.

    ------------------
    You know it to be so
     
  21. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    Flash,

    do you honestly believe God, the ultimate
    form of life in the universe, to be
    an individual?

    For the last time!!! God is not a man!!!
    God is unbound by the genderizations of
    nature. God created nature, and the
    universe, so why would God exist within
    it?

    God is the ultimate state of existence
    in the universe. God is the state of
    affinity with the universe in a state
    of constant infinity.

    That is what is one flaw within the
    "theory of everything." I read it once,
    twice, and 3 times over. Again I
    read it, and then I read it again
    with Tuskin. Both of us saw flaws
    in that theory. The biggest flaw
    was that it stated that

    "God is a being of pure energy existing
    in the 10th dimension."

    God is not a being of pure energy.
    God is the ultimate state of existence
    in the universe that we never truly
    reach, but eventually do. The closest
    God could ever be to a being, is
    being seen as a collective of all
    that has been, that is, and will come
    to be, integrated together.

    Tuskin and I are ones who think not
    in the 3rd, but in the 5th dimension.
    I try to generalize, not catagorize.
    (Stupid phrase????)

    -Dan
     
  22. Matt D Skeptic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    84
    Yes, it was.

    ------------------
    You know it to be so
     
  23. Xeno Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    Matt,

    what was the point of that reply?

    -Dan
     

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