Christians - I have repeatedly heard people in this forum and in ordinary conversation claim that, while they were Christians, they weren't like other Christians, the ones that oppress, threaten, and hate. (Most notably from Lori, any time somebody takes her to task over something unrelated) Unfortunetly, unethical acts are still being perpetrated 'in the name of God'. My question is this; why aren't the rest of you christians doing something about it? I thought wrong was wrong, no matter who was involved? Don't you think that you have a responsibility to correct those in your own camp prior to setting out to conquer others? You 'good' christians ascribe to the same basic set of beliefs as the 'bad' christians, and many people will see you as essentially one and the same.. so, it can only help you to do so. Has anyone ever hear the saying 'Healer, heal thyself'? FyreStar
FyreStar-- As I have nothing relevant to the data you've requested, I'll keep it brief: Thank you for this topic. It's an important question. Secondly, good luck. However, I am not a Christian, and should probably bow out here. I'll be watching this one on the sideline, and I promise to try not to litter this one with lengthy invective. thanx, Tiassa ------------------ "Religion isn't dead either. The AntiChrist will have access to computers, television, radio, and compact disc. If he walks among us already, the chances are that he has a walkman. I just hope it's not Christ himself, disillusioned after two thousand years in a cosmic sitting room full of magazines and cheeseplants, turned malignant and rotting in despair at the way his message has been perverted." (Robyn Hitchcock, 11/1987)
FyreStar, As usual, your questions are always respectable and quite good. Hopefully, I have garnered some respect with you in the past. Now, that I'm back, it might even be good to finish the old conversation. As for this one, I will be as truthful as ever. Hopefully, I'll be a comfort to you in some way. I pray that any Christian imperfection has not given you cause to doubt God. It is of no use to let the bad actions of someone else make the choice for you to not accept the truth of God. Being able to live only one life, I can only answer for myself in this type of matter. Is it possible that I have been neglectful in this area? Yes, it is. I do not believe that I have been. At the same time, I'm learning from the Holy Spirit right as I type this to you. Let's see if I can make that same statement by the end of the post. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! This is a delicate something. On one hand, public chastening of a brother or sister is completely umbilical! At the same time, there is truth in your words that must be dealt with. Your questions are deserving of an answer! To start, any Christian that tells you that they are not like other Christians is a liar or is in great need of increased Bible study. We are to be of one mind,... one spirit,... which is the focus upon the ways of God,... the desire to strive to be like the Lord Jesus Christ! We as humans, are still in touch with other humans and can understand the pains and trials of others because we are still in these fleshly bodies until God takes us home. This means that we are subject to imperfection and sin. God expects us to strive to be like Christ. He doesn't expect us to get there until He brings us there. We all fail in our own separate areas. Non of us are perfect. Is that an excuse? Not at all! All sin is to be hated! Are all Christian equally mature? That's another no. Wisdom and maturity are rewarded to God's children for being faithful and obedient in striving to be like His Holy example in Jesus Christ. If you see a Christian in sin, you see a Christian that has taken his eyes off of God for some period of time. Proverbs :12:26 says "The righteous is more excellent than the neighbor: but the way of the wicked seduceth them." Boy, is that ever the story of every Christians life! Sin might be rotten to the core but,... man oh man,... it usually comes in the best packages. She's not perfect. Her problems flex her to the point of breaking as well as anyones. To paraphrase Tony Evens, to have a problem that you can't handle is to have a Christ that you don't know. For some, that means that they don't know Christ at all. For others, that means that they don't really know the Christ that they are trusting in well enough. It's as dynamic as the relationship between any child and parent. "...the ones that oppress, threaten, and hate.",... to tell the truth, most of those are fools that lie to themselves (even about being a Christian) and regularly pick and choose from God's Word to suit themselves. The truth of the matter is that every time you read God's Word, it should both encourage you and reveal to you your failures. The mature Christian, growing in reliance upon God, realizes along with that growth that, God is Greater than he thought God was just a minute before. The more you know God, the more you know that you don't measure up,... the more you know that you need to study His ways to become more mature in Him. It is encourageable for all Christians to study to show themselves approved by God. Secondly, we can all understand that Microsoft, being the top dog, is a mass target of counterfeiting. The wrapping, packaging, fonts, design, and even the product all look the same. Only with close scrutiny can the truth of the origin be revealed. The public in general, does not know the difference. Well, God is the top of it all!!! I don't know the counterfeiter that would not counterfeit as one of His children. Some want personal gain. Some want to just look like they are the real thing without paying their dues (so to speak). They just like the atmosphere. It's an easy way to win in an argument to evoke the name of God. There's as many reasons for faking it as there are for lying. So, keep in mind that there are matters of maturity and authenticity to account for. Getting directly to your questions of, "why aren't the rest of you Christians doing something about it? I thought wrong was wrong, no matter who was involved? Don't you think that you have a responsibility to correct those in your own camp prior to setting out to conquer others? You 'good' christians ascribe to the same basic set of beliefs as the 'bad' christians, and many people will see you as essentially one and the same.. so, it can only help you to do so. Has anyone ever hear the saying 'Healer, heal thyself'?", I need to tell you that matters are not always as simple as they seem. We may all talk the talk but, it's walking the walk that God commands of His children. I can boldly speak to you the truth of God and have no fear in answering your questions because I have first obeyed God and am walking the walk (though imperfect,... I need His forgiveness everyday.). The counterfeiters never do it or try and once they realize it's not all roses give up fast. The immature that are not under the good Godly guidance of mature Christians are walking just about everywhere they shouldn't be. These both love to talk big. Yet, we both know that they break easily. Now, where priorities are concerned, if she is my sister; God is the Father whom it is that holds the authority over her life. Does that absolve me of the obligation of chastening her? Not at all! It does, however, shape the method of my behavior in that regard. It is not usual that a sibling should spank the other. It is usual to give a word of reproof. Still, the wise pick their battles. As a salesman, I learned that if one thing is true, customers lie. It's important that you not strip them naked by revealing every lie they have told you. You'll lose the sale. Instead, you spend the greater part of your time listening. You'll make the sale if you can avoid proving yourself right every time. In some ways, dealing with a disobedient Christian is the same. Jesus, after he had risen, revealed himself in secret to some guys walking on the road. Though they were clearly wrong in their doubts, Jesus didn't just jump all over them and slam them. Sometimes, it is the best good of the foolish to experience the result of their foolishness. I think, for that person, this is it. There is a great opportunity to grow in the Lord through the shame that comes from wrong choices if it corrects the person's focus. Moreover, it also presents a poor sense of disunity to have you see us fuss at one another here. You may not be aware of it, but, you are doing God's work right now! Because you chose to ask the right question of why, it allows the opportunity for God to teach you the truth of His Word on the matter. You just dialed 1-800-Evangelist Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. Only God answers that many numbers. For her, you have also been a blessing. Perhaps, it may also help you to see this example. My fictional kid sister wets the bed frequently. As a habit, she drinks three glasses of water before bed each night. Though she has been admonished of this behavior by our father, she continues. One morning, as guests of my brother and I and my siblings awake from a slumber party, it is obvious that she has wet the sleeping bag. My sister, I will help clean her mess with the knowledge that our father will deal with her problem. The guests, I will reproov for the ridicule of my sister. The experience will no doubt be a memorable one for her and be instrumental in causing her to change her ways. As always, I will be available to her for guidance and caring if she will have it. The role of the Brother is not the role of the Father when He is so very present in her life. A brother can advise. A brother can suggest. A brother can encourage. These things can be done in public. For your family, admonishing is private and not to be shared. Proverbs 12:16 says "A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame." Jesus Has The Answer For You Too, ISDAMan
ISDAMan, Excellent answer! But did it have to be so long? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You do seem to have a better understanding of the tenets of your faith than most Christians I have met. I can respect and admire that, although I choose to remain a born-again Pagan. So no proselytizing - 'kay? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Searcher, Nice response by ISDMan, indeed! As for your request, God asks you not to forget: "No one who lights a lamp conceals it with a vessel or sets it under a bed; rather, he places it on a lampstand so that those who enter may see the light. For their is nothing hidden that will not become visible, and nothing secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care, then, how you hear. To anyone who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he seems to have will be taken away."
I am so confused. Are you saying that I oppress, threaten, and hate, or are you saying that I get upset to hear of other Christians who oppress, threaten and hate? I thought I knew what you were talking about til I read ISDA man's answer. ???????? To answer your question though, it seems that I am so busy trying to identify and curb my own sinful behavior or thoughts, that I don't feel it is appropriate to address others. I am not the judge. I feel that the best I could do would be to preach the word or be a witness to the word myself. I am not responsible for anyone else's choice. We all have our own lives, brains, problems, and need for God in our lives. There are plenty of really good preachers out there, and really devoted Holy Spirit filled Christians out there that are trying their best every day to walk that walk with God. That is more than enough to keep us busy. So how about applying the old capitalistic principle of competition? When it comes to seeking fellowship or council or a place to worship or a preacher to learn from, hopefully the best church gets the business you know? One of the big problems I see is that some Christians are playing follow the leader, and not truly discerning things for themselves. That is it seems like some Christians have more faith in their "leaders" than they do in Jesus. That's lazy Christianity to me. I don't buy it. And if I was a preacher, I hope that no one would let me spoon feed them anything. It's everyone's responsibility. The best you can do is try to counteract the sin with forgiveness and mercy and faith in the Lord. I also think that denying Jesus as Saviour because of the sins of Christians is lazy as well, and not a well thought out arguement, but an easy excuse. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori, ISDAMan & TS, One of the main problems I have with Christianity is the way it suppresses the female energy, making it IMO a very unbalanced and oppressive religion, especially for women. I liken Christians to poor, motherless children who are blind to their impoverished and motherless state. But that's what they choose for themselves, and I won't try to convert them to my ways. I only ask that they have the same respect for me and my choices. Fair enough? Debating religious beliefs is one thing, but Christians step over the line when they tell me that my ways are "of the Devil" or that their religion is the "One True Religion" , and I am going to Hell on greased runners if I don't convert to their religion before it's too late (if I only had a nickel for every time I've heard that one!). Of course I realize that sentiment is part and parcel of the Christian religion, but it is a real turn-off to non-Christians. We've all heard it before, so please just skip it, okay? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Toss my two pennies into the fountain, I agree with Searcher. I've said it before, I'll say it again, I have no problem with Christianity, it's the Christians that annoy me. Not all of them, of course, but enough that when I hear "Christian" I prepare for the onslaught of 'Jesus tells you to do this' and 'God wants you to do that'-type statements. Like I haven't heard it all before!! Who hasn't heard the "Word of God" in America nowadays? I can tell you that I've heard it so many darn times the words have no meaning to me anymore. Jesus? You mean that latino guy down the road? He pronounces his name "hey-soose", but yeah, I know Jesus! Nice guy, he always waves when I drive by.
The basis of Christianity lies in the fact that Jesus Christ is our Savior. It is also a fact that Christians are called as disciples of God to spread the word of God so that as many souls as possible may dwell with God for all eternity. It is THE MOST important calling that one can get during this lifetime and not something that can be ignored or skipped. However, if I have ever expressed this in an un-Christianlike manner, I truly apologize to God and to anyone that I may have offended with any un-Christian behavior. Peace be with all of us. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 21, 1999).]
True' - Spreading the word is one thing, fine. Nagging and threatening with the word is not. (I'm not trying to say that's what YOU do, I'm speaking in general terms here)
To Everyone, I thank you all for such kind responses. Though many of you still have not responded to the world affairs post about something nice you have done, I have just seen one thing with my very own eyes. Again, I thank you. Thanx especially to FyreStar for posting such a valuable set of questions and tiassa for being so peaceable. Searcher & SkyeBlue, Have you ever thought to stop a while and find out what Jesus really does have to say to you? You admit, by your words, that there are Christians in the walk with God and some without. No doubt, it's the ones on the outskirts and the fakers that have given you a bad taste in your mouth for the Word of God. I think your statements acknowledges this. Why not take the time to ask someone that you can truly see IS walking with God? Why let someone else's bad tactics defeat you in so much that you experience an uncontrolled response of fear? Though you might not admit it, that's what it boils down to when you affirm that, "...it's the Christians that annoy me. Not all of them, of course, but enough that when I hear "Christian" I prepare for the onslaught of 'Jesus tells you to do this' and 'God wants you to do that'-type statements.". Let me tell you something in simple words. God does not call you to a religion. God calls you into a personal and loving relationship with Him. It's an amazing thought that we all know that our politicians are lying to us. Yet, we still vote. Many here, I'm sure, still stand behind Clinton though He has proved to be quick to lie and at least just as quick to forget the permanence, honor, duty, prestige, and glory of his marriage vows. The same thing and comparable can be said of many of our elected officials. I dare even say most. They set national policy amidst whores and heavy quantities of booze at so called social functions. The shake their fists in the wind as they pronounce values. Somehow, when it comes time to sign on the dotted line, their pins run out of ink. Yet, we still vote. Somehow, with the Word of God there's a difference. The flaws among His children seem in some way worse. How?!? It's because, even in the midst of the flaws, regarding the preaching of the Gospel by some, there is the soul of truth. Sometimes, the delivery sure does stink! I think it's normally a rare thing for there to be a need for a Christian to point his finger in the face of a sinner and yell, "You're Going To HELL!!!!!!" The best thing we can do is the same that Jesus did. He came serving and fellowshipping while telling the truth. If, one day, I see your toe nails and say, "Wow, your toe nails need help", do you think you'd feel offended? I'm sure you would. Now, if your regular manicurist happens to see your feet and says the same thing, it really wouldn't be so bad. Would it? After all, this person serves you. The most common way for people to come to know Christ is to first have a relationship with someone else that does. It's very easy for all Christians to forget this. This, however, does not preclude the Christian from presenting the word of God or even asking a person to yield their life to Christ. The here and now is important. There is a real sense of urgency about this. It would pain my heart dearly to know tomorrow that any of you did not live through the night and died without knowing the one person that would have prepared a good home for you to go to. Sad for you and yours as I would be, I would struggle on. God makes promises that I know and have seen Him keep. He'll do the same for you and even prove it if you spend some time with His good children. My mother always gave my friends juice and cookies when she gave them to me. The Bible says that even sinners that hang around with His children will profit for the sake that He profits His children. I'm willing to be your friend. You know my stance on God. You don't have to agree. Just watch me and see if my talk is my walk. I'll tell you now it is,... and only because I'm powered by Christ. None of it is my own straight. Let's be friends and you are free to watch me. Christ is King, ISDAMan P.S.- More to follow about women. I think that even you two will like this. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
To Lori, When a bank hires a new teller, they spend sparse little time teaching the ways of spotting a counterfeit bill. Instead, they drive home the points relevant to spotting the real ones. Keep your eyes off of the curb and squarely on the Savior who drives ahead of you. Though the day might be a fog of pea soup, if you focus in on Him, the curb might as well be a hundred miles away. This is how you judge the right from the wrong to even be able to preach the Gospel without guilt or a sense of not being able to do any better. Also, I would suggest that you read through the book of Proverbs two chapters at a time only. When you have read the chapters, go back and read them again,... and a third time. This is a tough book to grasp. Pray well before you start each night. I'm sure you may amend some of your statements and understand others better. Christ & I Love you Sister, ISDAMan P.S.- Here's a website w/ whole Bibles to help you study. <a href="http://www.biblestudytools.net/" target="_blank">http://www.biblestudytools.net</a> I like the New American Standard (NAS) with Strong's Numbers. If you don't know what it is, you will when you get there. All you have to do is type in your search word or Chapter and Verse Ex: (Revelations 2, or Rev 2:8) It works great! [This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 21, 1999).]
Anyone, What does IMO mean? I'm out of the AOL loop. God's Word will never return to Him void, ISDAMan
Thanks-A-Bunch Oxygen. It sounds good to me. God uses sinners. Ask Abraham. ISDAMan [This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 21, 1999).]
ISDAMan, Oxygen is correct - IMO means "in my opinion"; IMHO means "in my humble opinion". (I don't think it has anything to do with AOL, either.) So ISDAMan, tomorrow the Wheel of the Year brings us once again to Yule! Got any big plans? No? It's a very big day for celebrating the return of the God, who is reborn of the Virgin Goddess, don't you know? It's the reason for the season! Get my point yet? Keep reading. By your statement, "Why not take the time to ask someone that you can truly see IS walking with God?", it seems that you are assuming that I have never been exposed to "real" Christians. Actually, I've been on this planet for quite some time, and I could hardly have missed the "opportunity" to talk with a number of "real" Christians. Since it is their profound belief that they will go to Hell if they don't at least try to convert every person they meet, it isn't possible to live on this planet without talking to some "real" Christians. My own mother is one of them. How would you feel if, say, Pagans had a habit of trying to convert everyone they meet to Paganism? Wouldn't it be terribly annoying to you if Pagans were always talking to you about the God and Goddess, karma, chakras, meditation, Sabbats, Esbats, and so on? If you knew that talking to a Pagan would virtually guarantee that the conversation would eventually be steered in that direction, wouldn't you want to run the other way every time you saw one coming your way? Especially if they continually reminded you that you were on the wrong path, the God and Goddess were displeased with you and hurt by your choices in life, that you were in a serious state of karmic debt, blah, blah, blah...and it is their Pagan duty to point all of this out to you? And don't you want your children to be brought up to know the God and Goddess? Really think about what that would feel like, and maybe you'll get some sense of why non-Christians get extremely annoyed with Christians. Other religions don't do that! I like you ISDAMan, but please try to understand the concept that it's okay to allow people their own beliefs without bashing them over the head with yours. Something about wiping the dust from your feet comes to mind... By the way, Clinton is an idiot and I didn't vote for him either time (and yes, I did vote). ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Uhhhh...well thanks for the advice, ISDA. What motivates the advice, I'm not sure, as I believe that you TOTALLY misunderstood what Fyrestar was saying. Still great advice none the less, though. And I would suggest that you do the same. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!????? What statements are you referring to specifically, as I for the life of me have no idea what you're talking about??? You did not answer my question regarding what you were referring to in your answer to Skyblue. Would it surprise you to know that I read the Bible much much more often and intensely than you have just recommended that I do? Would it surprise you to know that I pray very intently at least once a day, but as well, I pray all day long. Do you realize that I'm a Holy Spirit filled Christian, and that I walk with God every day in every thing I do. I'm not saying that I never trip up. I do all the time, and so do you, and so does everyone else, but when I do, the Spirit tells me, and I can repent and atone. I'm just not sure where you're coming from, or what you are referring to. Please explain. In regards to the question that was posed by Skye, there is a reason, and a very good one at that, why I separate myself from the horrible sins committed throughout history "in the name of God". I believe that it is one thing to not believe, to be unfamiliar with the word and the spirit, and to sin. I think that each of us has the responsibility to examine our lives, and the faith, and decide for ourselves in honesty what is right, and I know that many people do not do that. BUT, I think it is worse, and if I'm not mistaken the Bible denotes this as well, to be familiar with the word, and to be filled with the Spirit, and then to still commit sin. To use the name of God to sin, or to satisfy your own ego, is what I believe to be more detrimental to the faith than almost anything else. The reason that I know this, is partially at least, from talking to those out here, and hearing over and over and over, in a gazillion different circumstances, about how others do not believe in Jesus, because of the sins of Christians. I can honestly say without a doubt that I could never find a way to justify killing someone in the name of God, or discriminating against someone in the name of God, or judging anyone in the name of God. These happen to be things that Christians have done, and are the very things that Fyre is referring to, that I happen to dislike, and separate myself from. I'm just being honest, about myself, and about the faith. That's why I think that humility is soooooo KEY to the faith. If you are truly humble, and honestly recognize how it is that God sees you and all others around you, then you could never ever justify condemning or judging anyone. That is something that I take very very seriously, and you will never ever find that I have done that to anyone out here. I believe that the closest I came is when I told Tab he must be evil incarnate, but I thought it was pretty clear that I was kidding, as the very notion of that being true is virtually impossible. You will never hear me say, "So and so, you should do this, this, and this, and you shouldn't do that, and if you do these things, then maybe you will be as good of a Christian as I am." You will never ever hear me say that to anyone, and I do not for a reason. The reason being that my Father told me it was wrong, and sinful and ego driven to do that to people. Did your Father tell you the same thing? He should have seeing as how our Fathers are one in the same. Many Christians ignore this particular sin that I'm referring to, and I really with they wouldn't, simply because it is the biggest turn off to non-believers that there is, and it's a turn off for a reason, and that reason is because it's wrong. All you have to do is take a look at history to know that. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!" [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 22, 1999).]
IDAMan - I too have had plenty of experience with Christians. My Grandmother is a devout Catholic. I love her dearly, and have literally sat at her feet and listened to her speak of the Glory of God. She is a great woman, and if there is a heaven, surely she is destined for it. My problem with Christianity is that it just doesn't hold water for me. You seem to be under the impression I "fear" the word of God. This simply isn't the case. I have no fears of your God, because I really don't think he exists, at least not in the form you believe he does. I follow Paganism, it makes sense to me. The cycles of the God & Goddess are demonstrated in the cycles of nature. I have but to open my eyes, just a little, and I can see their works all around me. Today is God's birthday, it is Yule. His divine influence will bring about spring, as he matures the days will grow in length, until the June equinox, when he will marry the Goddess. (On my wedding anniversary, by coincidence!) This morning as I left for work, the shining moon-face of the Goddess shed her divine light down on me, it felt like a hug. Despite the cold I flung my arms outwards and bid a happy birthday to the Golden God, the Blue Father, the Sky Father, the God of the Beasts and Forests. I bid a happy Yule to the Silver Goddess, the Green Mother, Mother Nature, the Goddess of the Earth, Seas and Moon. They are the parents of my soul, and I adore them both. Today is a Sabbat, a witches holiday. When I go home today, I will set up my altar, and cast a circle of power, and invite the God & Goddess to join me in celebration. I need not humble myself before them, or beg their forgiveness for any "sins" I may have committed. They know my feelings, they can see into my heart. They are a part of me, and upon death, my energy will merge with theirs, until time comes for me to walk the earth again. Then I will be recreated in a new body, to enjoy the Earth that my Mother and Father have created for me. My life is a testimony to their love, and I'm enjoying it quite a bit! Blessed Be, IDAMan, may the God and Goddess smile upon you. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
The lightbulb in my head just went off! I have a great example that may (I hope) explain what I am talking about regarding Christians, and those who can't stand them. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! For example, I am really good friends with a lesbian. One of several reasons why she does not believe in (or rather vehemently hates) the Christian religion is because the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. So, through discussion I try to explain to her (per her request) why I think that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. And of course she tells me I'm full o' shit, and argues every point I make to the death. And yet, she remains my friend, and I remain hers, and we have the utmost respect for one another and care about each other as friends, and as fellow human beings. Ok, my point here is this...why doesn't that happen more often between Christians and non-believers? And I think that the answer to that is two-fold. One reason is that when I am arguing that homosexuality is a sin, I never ever think or say that her sin is any greater than the bevy of sins that I have committed. I do not see her as a bad or evil person because she's not. She has no malicious intent, and even for those who do have malintent, I hate the sin, love the sinner, and do not consider these persons to be any worse or better in God's eyes than myself. Unfortunately, I do not perceive this perspective to be shared among many Christians. I mean, I just have to base my opinions on what I've seen in my life, but you just don't hear many, IF ANY, Christians say, "I have a very close friend who is a homosexual." My question is why not? Point being that there is quite a difference between explaining your beliefs to someone and condemning or judging them or looking down your nose at them AS IF you are somehow a better person. So in this respect, I blame the Christians for not being true to the word. Another reason though, and I'm familiar with this because it happens to me all the time, is that because so many Christians have presented themselves to non-believers in the fashion that I just described, the non-believers assume that their behaviour towards them correctly represents the Christian faith. THAT IS NOT TRUE. And it is YOUR responsibility to realize this, and stop copping out on the faith because of the sins of Christians. It's a cop out. I know that you may not be doing this intentionally, but now that it's been brought to your attention that God did not "order up" or support in His word the killing or persecution or discrimination of people, then I would definately expect NOT to hear this arguement or justification of non-belief in the future. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yes, I'm trying to put that baby to bed once and for all, and for your benefit not my own. I think you all know that I could very well argue this til the cows come home, and probably will, but the arguement itself is keeping you from seeing the truth, and I don't want anything to get in your way. What can I do to change the "church people"? How about taking a stand in my own life, and not giving in myself to their judgementalism? Like for example, not letting the turned up noses of fellow believers discourage me from a friendship with a gay person. That's what I do, and believe me, I defend my position with the church people right in their face, any time, any place. I hope this helps. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
About women in the Word of God Well, some of you have expressed the idea that women are oppressed and/or suppressed by Christianity. It is the obvious lack of a true relationship with the Father that leads one to take this stance. All Christians are the Body of Christ. Not a single one is better than or more valuable than any other. We may each have gifts of specialty in differing areas. That still makes no one better. When the question was asked as to why people think that God is a man, I replied, "People think that God is one sex or the other because of confusion. God made us in His likeness and made us male and female. He assigned some of His attributes to men and some to women. He is referred to in the masculine because those attributes as the head were given to men. Those attributes as a helper, the very same ones through which came our Savior, the Lord, Jesus Christ were given to women. Both are of God. God is Perfect. Neither aspect of attributes is less in value." You see, in all of creation there are duties to be fulfilled. The high minded would never be a port-o-potty cleaning man. Yet, the one with the servants heart would be blessed of the Lord in taking a task that others look down upon. The truth of the matter is that without the people that do seemingly base work, we would all be in a sad state of affairs. It is the base that holds up the rest. I will put it to you in the terms of hands and feet. Men are the hands. Women are the feet. From art to writing to tender touches to most anything, people are praised for the work of the hands. Rarely is there any recognition of the work of one's feet. The hands are always in the forefront. They are gloved with rabbit fur lined gloves and are the first to be greeted at parties or held up in times of good cheer. While the feet, as is usual, are crammed into some old funky shoes and gagged with itchy socks only to miss the festivities. I could go on in so many ways. I'm sure you get the picture. Still, let's look closer together. It is by the uplifting of the feet that the hands can find themselves in such positions of glory. Consider your feet. They are not strong. In fact, the most part of their strength stems from the legs. Yet, it is upon them that we, being massive in size, stand, walk, climb, and run. Not by strength but, by design. Feet are crafted as helpers. The take the heavy load and spread it out. Still, they need our care. Your hands will clip your toenails. It's not the other way around. Your hands will wash the feet. It's not the other way around. A stubbed toe will be cared for by hands. Feet that are loved will be anointed with powders and oils by hands. Hands will caress the feet taking care to even reach the delicate places between the toes. Only hands prepare the soaking baths to soothe the feet. It is not the other way around. Only a fool would not care for their own feet in this way. By morning, the feet are once again expected to fulfill their appointed duties. The tasks require them to get smelly and dirty. There is no less love. The wise will love them more for it. Practice as long and hard as you like. I dare anyone to walk ten miles on their hands. For all the strength, most would fail before the first 100 yards. However, loose you hands; your feet can do a nice, though far from complete, job of filling in. I thank the Lord that my hands and feet don't have the free will to revolt and claim the task of the other in jealousy. The same is true of people. The Bible tells us, as men, to love our wives as Christ loves the church (His Body). My goodness! Though He was the highest and the leader and gave instruction, He got down and washed the feet of His disciples. Still, He tasked them and sent them out in harsh conditions expecting them to return to Him in righteousness. He gave His life for us all. The example of Christ is to serve. A woman loved is a woman well served. A woman trusted is a woman with difficult tasks. To the prudent, to be the port-o-potty cleaning man is the position of honor. It is the scorn of the fool who has neither the wisdom or the value to take such to task. It is the position of Christianity to follow Christ. Christ cared for the widows,... He released the harlots,... He gave peace to the scorned,... He upheld the virtue of a woman's honor. All throughout the Word of God, good kings have their lineage tied to their mothers. Bad kings, to their fathers. Men carry the burden of leadership in sin. Adam was the greater of the fools between he and Eve. In closing, Christ knows the value of feet. So does Satan. The ways of the world pivot upon the goings of women. Ask any politician. Just a little closer walk with Him,... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ISDAMan
