Expansion of the Universe

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by Xelasnave.1947, Oct 26, 2019.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I have never made a secret of my concerns with the big bang theory.
    It all turns on the universe expanding which I understand is determined by Red shift ...not that I understand much mind you..but I was thinking it is probably not possible to watch galaxies blink out of view as they move out of the observable universe but could it be possible to measure two galaxies on either side of the observable universe and measure how over time they move apart..would this be possible..for example say we selected galaxy A is the West and galaxy B in the East could we measure how much they move apart..or most importantly not..what separation and observation times be required?
    Any idea?
    Alex
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Wendy Freedman determined space to expand at 72 kilometers per second per megaparsec - roughly 3.3 million light years - meaning that for every 3.3 million light years further away from the earth you are, the matter where you are, is moving away from earth 72 kilometers a second faster.

    Write4u you are into maths...let's start two gallaxies 60 degrees separation 10 billion light years from us current separation between them must be 10 billion light years ...so what would their angle of separation be in say ten years...heck I should be able to work that out...one of those things to work out to get you off to sleep.
    Alex
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Just in my head at 49 billion light years from us we should be able to observe them moving apart at the rate of .3 light years (approx) after ten years. What that would be in angular separation I don't know .I will try and work out the angular change. I am thinking impercievable.
    Alex
     
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  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Actually the angular separation would not change so I don't know we could determine a distance between them change.
    Alex
     
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I am now very confused..tired I guess.
    Alex
     
  9. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,856
    Why would the separation between them be 10 billion light years?
     
  10. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    8,856
    How is this any different than what we already do with red shifting?
     
  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I was trying to get a feel for the possibility of measurement ..a ruff equalateral triangle hence 60 degrees and was an arbitrary thing to arrive at an initial distance. But I realised the distance of separation may change but the 69degrees will remain so that approach won't tell us anything as the angle will be the same expanding or not.
    The Big Bang relies on expansion, if no expansion there can be no extrapolation back to a point where everything fits in a shoe box or less, and expansion is determined by Red shift so I was considering could there by another way of determining expansion.
    And this was my attempt and I can see that my idea was wrong.
    In addition to my usual leg pain I have twisted my angle so I am in more pain than usual and confined to laying around and so I think about stuff to help manage the situation.
    Thanks for your interest but as far as I can tell red shift is all we have.
    Alex
     
  12. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,856
    What is the nature of your leg pain, sciatic nerve pain?
     
  13. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,856
    There is another way and it has been done. The CMB temperature has been measured at various points in time and it is now cooler by the exact among that would be expected by expansion. You can Google for the details.
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I had a back operation perhaps four years ago, it was described to me as a vein and an artery in my spine or behind it tangling up and merging ..I did not really want to know the details to be honest...anyways I escaped being wheelchair bound but my legs feel like they are on fire, and feet..it does not stop..I won't take pain killers although when it gets really unbearable I will drink a bottle of whiskey over 24 hours..the pain does not go away but I get a mental break...I chat here to have to concentrate on something else, same with the astronomy, the agony is hard to manage but somehow astro photography and the limitless challenges really helps me.
    But I had a fall, in the dark, stepped on some rope then a tent pole and went over causing a bad sprain..I can't walk..can't use crutches can't have a bandage because of the burning so I come here and another place to try and hold it together..With the ankle I can't have whiskey as I would probably think I could walk and do more damage...but the most wonderful thing is..I don't have any back pain..how good is that.
    Alex
     
  15. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    when you turn conformity on its ear you must be fit enough to pedal sideways for a long time

    it gets tiring

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  16. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,856
    I get the no pain pills thing although a bottle of whisky doesn't seem any better but can't you take an anti-inflamatory every now and then (if that is the nature of the pain)?

    I ask before I have a herniated disc in the lower back. When I exercise too much I start to get sciatic pain. I stop of course (temporarily of course) but when I over do it and the sciatic nerve gets inflamed I take an anti-inflamatory pill just to get that reduced (so I'm not just making the problem worse every time I move) and then I stop taking that as well.

    I'm just wondering if there isn't a better way to deal with your pain?
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I know.
    What I do not like is....and this is what we expect in accordance with the theory..to me that closes all doors on other possibilities...
    To me it does not seem at all possible that you can fit all there is into a region allowable by the theory.
    Just think of the billions of galaxies and the billions of objects...fitting it into the volume the theory suggests is not better than being asked to believe in God..It leads you to a point of creation...and how convenient ..no comment on creation other than this is where times began and knowing the world puts in god even where there are alternatives it is hard even for me to say well who else could do that but god... I mean really just think about it for a couple of hours..forget the sums ...heck I did spreadsheets for subdivision projections I could show a huge profits or a huge loss with minimal tweeking.
    I could show a 100% projected profit or a similar loss...the loss youwas iffor a vendor who had unrealistic price expectations the better one was for when you sold it... want to prove something math can be used to do what you want...but if I was presented with someone else's projection on say a subdivision which showed a 200% profit I would assume with out a second look that it was BS...and those always were.
    What I always did for my file were three .worst case, reasonable expectation, and if everything went in with no problems..instant sales, rising market etc.

    Don't get me wrong nothing wrong with the reliability of math but really if you know what you are doing you can manipulate it..or so I believe...and look..what do you think the chances of anyone getting funding to show big bang is wrong. ...
    It is supported by all the religions..why..because it hints at creation ...do you think for one moment the church would get behind an eternal universe approach...any of them?

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    I think you can't get better than a bottle of whisky...It's pain it is created by the mind and my mind knows that..it's just that I get to a point where I need a break. ...I just get to the point where I just need to scream for goodness sake give it a break...the ankle is different I have real damage and the pain is telling me so...it's saying don't move...
    Look it's not a problem..I tend to mention it to remind myself that I have it licked.
    Alex
     
  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    An interesting aspect of subdivision, or a block of units you must keep your best until last as this is where your profit resides. You don't want to be waiting to sell the last crook block or unit to get your profit..so many make the mistake of selling the best first to get the thing rolling..bad idea.
    Alex
     
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  20. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,856
    I'm not sure I follow this particular post.

    Who cares what they church supports? The Catholic Church finally just decided to support science and in the end to say that it was God's way. Many of the rest fight science all the time.

    It doesn't affect the science either way.

    An eternal universe fits in with God as well if you want it to. The universe has always been here and that's because God has always been here, etc.

    Regarding the observable universe and all the things we see not fitting into it? All that is directly observable. There is no problem with the theory in that particular regard.
     
  21. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    for argument sake, given science does not understand black holes or dark/missing energy
    maybe time can be compressed
    maybe time as it is measured in the inner centre is compressed and outer time is less compressed, so the shift factor is aligned to expansion of time, not only light and space.

    its just a muse

    say for argument sake, measuring time is in its self a time shift to measure the shifting nature of it.
    this would always align the quantity with expansion
    once this expansion(of time and space) was comprehended, then it could be factored to understand the difference in shift.(pure postulation for argument sake)

    ...
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    No argument here as I really do not follow, sorry, remember I am just a mug.
    Alex
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    It is my belief that the church drove the science in the direction of presenting science that led humans to a point where they would encounter creation...so sure not all will say god is the creator but the argument is now was there a creator was it god or not..if you have an eternal universe there is no point of creation, hence no creator. The church needs a point of creation to fit the presented myth...my opinion...and the opinion of the many scientists who rejected the big bang ( a derogatory term given by an opponent) on its first airing.
    Science is not imune from the backgrounds of those working in the field..when I say..." but a priest invented big bang.".. folk say but he was a scientist..yes but a scientist raised in the church...you know you can take the boy out of the country but you can't take the country out of the boy... And apparently the church was preoccupied with the pagan "cosmic egg" prior to...and then we find an updated modern version..the cosmic atom...
    Well I doubt it..the church must have a creation point..the bible first entries..it's not "and the universe always was"... No god created it...
    I know the math backs it up and I have no need to look for flaws or disprove it...I just don't buy it.
    It's like someone approaches you with a good deal seeking funds, you go over their paper work and their spread sheets and you can't not fault any of it...but you just somehow feel that it will never work...of course you may miss a golden opportunity to invest but I have had countless great investments put before me and they look so good and yet I have never regretted not getting in on the ground floor because not one has ever delivered on the promise...I recall..get into trees great investment and the sums say so...they are not a good investment in my view..I never bought properties for the tree investment I just like trees...and I could make a list of investments supported by good sums that never delivered.
    And it is people's greed that switch off that little voice that says this can't be right ..stay well away...and it's my feeling you may well find the reality is that extrapolation or not the universe will not fit in a shoe box...my view unsupported and out of step.
    Alex
     

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