Search engine Key words: mind control, prophecy, Astrology, Clairvoyance, Religious Eschatology, Mental health, Persecution complex, Determinism, Atheism This thread was inspired by a comment made by a fellow member of sciforums. Other members also have by holding Determinist beliefs have indicated similar positions which can be summed up by: the quote: Poster details available upon request. "Belief in gods is a commonly held position by most humans, but such beliefs, just like your (the) notion of self determinism, aren’t rational or consistent with scientific understanding." Pretty straight forward ....yes? The consequence is that the Determinist believes that humans have no genuine freewill and it is just and illusion to believe we do. That of all choices we have to choose from only one is predetermined by the universe to be taken and that we are completely under the control of such a deterministic universe. Thus placing the universe in a position of Godly power over humanity. Essentially this means that when taking Atheism to the extreme using Determinism to justify such extreme, one can only conclude that the universe is in control and not individual humans. This begs the question: Do extreme atheists believe in a God? Care to discuss?