Fertilization-Assigned Personhood [FAP]

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, May 11, 2014.

  1. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree! What THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? How can YOU turn something so obvious, so traditional , so natural as a viable human being into a blob of cells? "I'll take 27 weeks when my womb is no longer necessary for survival of said blob for $2000, Fraggle."
     
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Right right, my apologies - you are so hung up on language that you can't see the point behind it. Right, let me fix that:

    you are being just as hateful towards the developing child-to-be

    Anywho, stop trying to change the subject.
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    All right, I won't complain if you add the suffix "to-be."

    And yes, if that were my wife's survival, or merely her physical health, or hell even just her mental health, that was at stake, that "blob of cells" will come in second-place every time. Even if it's called a "child-to-be."

    Huh??? You people are bastardizing the language in order to manipulate our emotions! I know very well what that means: You can't win your argument with honest methods.

    This is why your crowd had to redefine "anti-abortion" as "pro-life," even though the truth is that many abortions are performed to save the mother's life.

    Oddly enough, they also redefined "pro-abortion" as "pro-choice," even though every single one of us can agree on one thing: the fetus doesn't get a choice.

    There's a very good reason that Religious Redneck Retard is the perfect name for these people. Their cognitive skills are pathetically weak!
     
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Which, as I have said repeatedly is just fine - if there is a legitimate reason for it, the abortion should happen no matter what time in the pregnancy it is. Otherwise, why hasn't the decision been made already?

    Okay, let me ask this: If there is no medical reason to abort the child, why shouldn't the fetus be given consideration, especially if the mother has already carried it for 7 or 8 months? Because, honestly, I can't understand such a line of reasoning.

    Don't you dare even try to lump me in with the "end abortion" crowd... that is just blatant misrepresentation of my stance and my ideals. If the abortion is necessary to save the mothers life, then by all means, do it. If it is, however, possible to save the mother and the fetus, perhaps that should be considered as well.

    A redesignation I never quite understood.

    Apparently not... because unfortunately, it seems like the ones trying to outright ban abortion are winning. So... if the "Religious Rednecks" fighting against abortion are apparently winning... then just how "retarded" are the other side of this debate, hm?

    Pick your words carefully Fraggle... as you flaunted just a few moments ago, you ARE the Linguistics moderator, after all.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. no attempt to use language to manipulate emotions there.
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I understand it. I'm pro-choice but anti-abortion, just as I am against smoking but think that people should have the choice to smoke if they want to (and if the smoke doesn't harm anyone else.)
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Fair enough I guess, makes sense in the idea that you are letting people have a choice despite not agreeing with their desire.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The fetus should always be given consideration.

    As every pregnancy carried to term presents a certainty of serious harm and a substantial risk of death to the pregnant woman, one of the considerations is whether and when and to what degree a particular developing human being (starting with the fertilized egg) should be given legal protection from the ordinary rights of self-defense all human beings, including women, expect to be able to exercise.

    When is there no legitimate reason to prevent serious harm and avoid the substantial risk of death?
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    So... you are claiming that giving birth carries with it a certain risk of death or harm? How do you figure... I mean, if that were true, then how did we, as a species, survive this long?

    Hell, by that logic: Crossing the street carries with it the risk of being hit by a bus. Eating food carries with it the risk of getting fat. Breathing carries with it the risk of developing lung cancer from second hand smoke. Exercise is known for a fact to cause damage to muscle tissue (which is how the muscles get stronger). Does that mean we should stop doing all those? For that matter, the very act of living carries with it the certainty of death...
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Because MOST women survive giving birth. And if a woman gives birth to three children, but dies giving birth to the fourth, then she is (in terms of evolution) successful.

    No. But you do have the right to decide to not cross streets because you don't want to accept the risk, and you have the right to decide what you eat. There are even laws against indoor smoking in many places so you can choose what kind of air you want to breathe.
     
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Then I fail to see your argument here, because the woman ALSO has the right to not have sexual intercourse, or to use protection, or to use contraceptives, or to have her tubes tied, etc...
     
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Whoa, Bronco! Don't trample!

    Well of course: no answer to any question can be complex. Complexity comes from the devil, or from the devils who won't believe in the devil, or... well, whatever. Anyway: what exactly is so special about that point? No, really, as our neighbour likes to say: what's so special about it? The fetus is displaced in location? And.. what? Only then - does it enter a cognitive state approaching our own? How would we know this, exactly? I'm not adverse to your position, if logically supported: it's just that it doesn't seem compellingly different, neurocognition-wise.

    Well thank the ungods that I'm not one of those people. But the conservative pro-choice crowd - of which I am one - seems to hold some reasonable reservations, as well they might.

    Yeah! Those bastards! Fortunately, we wouldn't even think to try to prevent women from joining our power structure, and we have many questions and opinions. Not like the Catholic Church.

    Unhellfire and nondamnation! Amen, Brother! And thank the not-gods we're not those people! And, since we're not, and since only a fool would think that we're carrying water for them since we explicitly reject their conception of life also, maybe we can just leave them on the shelf. We'll toss them some holy texts and some ammo; it'll keep 'em busy for hours, no worries.

    We've covered a variety of compelling reasons for a middle ground. But the counter is unrooted: why would we think that the argument must be reduced to the extremis on either side of the distribution of opinion?

    :shrug: Okay, I guess.

    Wait: your women? Frag, I hate to ask at this juncture, but are you doing some satire here?

    All right, that's a 'no'. I don't know how smart your parrot is - I've seen them talk and all, but it's been my experience these days that having access to language is not an indicator of much of anything any more. If it was a 'person', though, would you euthanise it without reasonable cause?
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,848
    1) What's the relevance? How do those additional "rights" affect a woman's right to self defense against serious bodily harm inflicted by other human beings?

    2) No, actually, as the Florida State government reminds us, even an adult woman in some places has no such rights as you list there. Teenage girls, of course, lack most of them in most places.

    3) The ability, as well as the right, is at issue.
     
  17. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Insuffragettes; or, Setting the Floor of the Debate

    This should be good.

    Not sure why we're fapping on about PIU. I guess this is a herring.

    OMG OMG OMG - the great one is now going to tell us what the real plan was, all along, that didn't get mentioned until right now. I bolded the important part: a way, the statesman said. A single. Irrefutable. Way. One way. Only. And that way is:

    ... That's it? So the only way to avoid FAPing is to declare the zygote a person.

    Well. I have no words.

    Okay, I have a few words: that is, hands down, the most desperately stupid false dichotomy I've ever seen. I really mean this. I mean everything I say, but the point really deserves to be underscored. The personhood of the zygote. I'm sure I'll get called out for not answering this to Tiassa's feigned dissatisfaction, but really - this is the kind of bullshit I'm expected to waste my time discussing. I'll make it short: if you really think there are only the two above possible arguments, then you impressively demolish even my cynical expectations of your intellectual myopia. There is, I'm almost certain, no worse possible argument to be made, or that has been made.

    Hey - hey, Tiassa - it's the, uh... removal of the obligation of dependence on the mother. I think I already mentioned that. This is sort of the basis of the "body" issue. Pass it on. Seriously, I know it's unclear to you, specifically, but that's not exactly a damnation at this juncture.

    And that's where the argument really goes off the rails. I mean, sure, our neighbour believes that a little casual misrepresentation is no bad thing. In fact, I think he genuinely enjoys it.

    Well, it's none of those three except observable; and that fact is special if you're from someplace that's never heard of the sorcerer's arts called ultrasound. Oh, the wizardry of modern medicine! What will they think of next? It's particularly funny how your reference to rational really boils down to being able to see it with me peepers, without reference to any special characteristics characterising this point. Let's see what you can do here, when pressed: what's special about that point, Tiassa? Come on, don't be scared - explain exactly how it's different, and I'll show you a really magical trick.

    We'll just conclude here; the remainder of your argument is just special pleading: I know Geoff - and every other person making the reasoned argument - explicitly reject the personhood of the zygote, encroachment into women's health and abject misogyny, but really, really, I know in my heart of hearts that this is actually what they desperately yearn for. In fact, more than that: I'll just continue to accuse them of that very thing without reference to their arguments, because their arguments don't reflect the point I so desperately need to make. So, instead, I'll talk about an offensive law that Republicans are attempting to pass in South Carolina. By juxtaposting them and this ridiculous bill, hopefully I can fling enough tar to make it look as though their motives are suspect. That about wrap it up, Tiassa?

    I think it does. Sure, we could get into the ball-shattering absurdity of how the moderator of ETHICS feels he can just disregard the entire discussion for the purposes of stroking his own ego with a wildly pathetic run at guilt by non-association. Would that be better, Tiassa? And a cup of warm milk, perhaps, and to tell him that no matter what he does, his mummy really loves him. It's my fault, I guess: by their works ye shall know them, they say, and there's no question that by this point I should know 'them' well enough to know that no matter what I actually argued, or how well, it would just end up with you turning a blind eye and continuing to fling feces.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  18. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    1) The relevance is the same - just as I have the right not to cross the road because I MIGHT get hit by a vehicle, a woman has the right NOT to have sexual intercourse and get pregnant because she MIGHT die during childbirth. Statistically speaking, I'm more likely to get hit by a car than she is to die giving birth, at least in countries with modern medicine.

    2) I think I missed something here - as far as I'm aware, no US Government body has legislated that a woman does not have these rights... sure, RELIGIOUS groups have tried to say so... but as some members here are so fond of saying, the religious nutjobs don't get to make the laws.

    3) Their ability to use good judgement is an issue... the same could be said about such things as drugs, alcohol, driving the speed limit, sexually transmitted diseases, and taking duck-face selfies.
     
  19. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    1,784
    Will you tell me what you think about this article?

    This woman basically holds the same position as, you know, them. For them, the question is not about when the magical journey of personhood begins. It’s all about location-location-location.

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    Abortion: how late is 'too late'?
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    So you're not demanding restrictions and bans with exemptions for the 3rd trimester?

    Aren't you the one going on and even naming all those who stand with you?

    "One of us... One of us... One of us"..

    How appropriate..

    In other words, when she's being a good incubator, then she's fine. But if she chooses to assert her rights over her body, then her safety within the context of possible death if she has to resort to a backyard abortion if a ban is in place and she does not fit your pathetic little criteria, then it is wholly unimportant.

    And that's the thing about your combined freakish attitude. You care so little about the mother that you don't even care if she dies. She is unimportant. The only thing that matters is the child in her womb. And when that child is born, then bleh, fuck it, onto the next pregnant woman.

    A third trimester abortion takes days, is exceptionally painful and traumatic.

    In places where there are no restrictions, the figures are still below 1%.

    Or are you of the belief that more women are simply going to wait until right to the end (even though I provided evidence by way of interviews with abortionists who perform 3rd trimester abortions which clearly state the safe cut off point is 33-34 weeks because it is too risky after that) or even to the 3rd trimester to endure 3-4 days of agonizing pain and then what is literally a 'birth' for fun or something?

    So why this panic about 3rd trimester abortions?

    Much less women have them, even in areas where they are legal.

    So what's the deal?

    Why do you wish to restrict it when it actually does not need restricting? If you want to remove the women who are apparently waiting that long because they cannot afford or access one earlier due to the fact that they may need to travel hundreds of miles to be able to access one in the first trimester and be put through ridiculous rigmaroles to be able to get one in the 1st trimester, from that group who get abortions in the 3rd trimester, then demand from your Government that they make abortions more widely available in the first and second trimester.

    That would reduce that giant and apparently very stressful and very concerning 1% figure you're all so stressed about, dramatically.

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    Gee, a solution that provides women with more choices earlier on that does not equate forcing women to have to wait 'so long' to get one and you get what you want without imposing more restrictions on women.. Less third trimester abortions.

    I am the one carrying it in my uterus.

    Who and what are you to me again?

    Why the fuck should I care about what you think or want? You are a complete stranger. You are not the father or my doctor. You have nothing to do with me or with it. So why should I care about what you think or want?

    Whether I abort it or not has no affect on you whatsoever. It has nothing to do with you.

    Your emotive mystical psycho babble and "sentience", etc, mean diddly squat to anyone who is not your wife.

    When my uterus affects 'elements of society and economy', then you can have control over it.

    Until then, it is none of your business.

    Well if I am 27 weeks pregnant and I don't want it there, I'll just abort it. What is it to you? Who are you to me and to the "baby" again?

    No need to be stupid or use such stupid and emotive and unrealistic arguments.

    Actually I can.

    It's my body.

    You can't even answer who or what are you to me that I should care about what you think I do with my uterus. All you resorted to was emotional and frankly kinda stupid analogies that do not even apply to pregnancy or pregnant women and spouted emotional and mystical psycho babble about "sentience".

    You don't agree with 3rd trimester abortions? Don't get one.

    Your dilemma is solved.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    23,728
    Well we are all blobs of cells.

    We are fully made up of cells. So his analogy is correct.

    And if you disagree with abortions, don't get one. No one should ever force you to get one. To have a child or not have a child is and should always be entirely your choice. Fraggle would argue just as vehemently against anyone who tried to force you to abort a wanted foetus. That's the thing, it is about choice.

    [HR][/HR]


    As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the woman is the murderous irresponsible bitch for wanting to murder her "baby".

    Oh you haven't been keeping up..

    It's now a conscious, aware and feeling person. The language has changed.

    Science? What science?!

    It's hysterical.

    And as for how these people describe the mother?

    Like how he removes the man from that entirely?

    Why doesn't the man not have sex, use protection or have his tubes tied?

    But in the eyes of these people, if she gets pregnant, then she was irresponsible. It is her job to prevent falling pregnant.

    You know, the irresponsible woman who deserves it and must be made to pay for her irresponsibility argument?

    The language has changed, well sort of. When it comes to the foetus, it is now a feeling, conscious and aware child or baby. The language for the woman remains the same though. She's just the irresponsible woman who has sex, falls pregnant and then murders her baby.

    People who support the woman's right to choose her reproductive options are supporters of murdering babies, as I have been accused of apparently being.

    These are the confines of the language of their argument. They cannot operate outside of that, even when shown the scientific proof that they are in fact wrong.
     
  22. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I completely agree.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Definitely. That does not remove other rights that she has.
     

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