Finding Salvation

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by Pipes75, Dec 28, 2009.

  1. Pipes75 Registered Senior Member

    Salvation isn't as hard to find as some might think.
    I'm not religious, but I am very spiritual.

    Forgiveness is very important. Forgiveness not only to those that have made mistakes against you, but equally important is the forgiveness of yourself for your own mistakes. We all make mistakes, but if we learn from our mistakes we don't need to regret any of it. I also don't judge or blame others for making mistakes. People generally are trying to do what they think is best, we just don't agree what is best. That's OK too, as long as we respect eachother.

    Which leads us to the next important factor after the forgiveness, being able to Love and Respect it all. Many take their comfort for granted until they can recognize the extremes. Many others only see one side of an extreme. But the comfort is found between extremes, and we should respect the extremes for making our comfort possible.

    The more awareness we have, the less fear is needed. Knowledge creates awareness.
    If we welcome new challenges, we won't need worry or stress neither. All obstacles can be overcome as long as we put in the effort and time needed to overcome it.

    Life goes on. My life is infinite. You don't have to believe me, to respect my belief.

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  3. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    i believe you.
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  5. Pipes75 Registered Senior Member

    Although it's nice to hear those word from you, it still doesn't matter as much if you believe me. We don't need to all believe the same things.

    If people want to be a part of the sun, hey I need light to find comfort.
    If people want to be a part of the darkness, well too much light would be too warm for me anyway, so we need some darkness too.
    However I need respect for and from everyone no matter what they believe.

    Our beliefs should not dictate our Love and Respect.

    I have difficulty tolerating conditional love and disrespect. When I say this I still don't judge or blame, but I do hope for awareness and change.

    The cruelty in this world has gotten to the point of ridiculas, and I don't care what you believe, if you look at the world, everyone can see their are problems along with the beauty.

    I know if I wanted to I could do just about anything for myself, but I'm more interested in collectively improving this world for everyone. I care more about the world then I do about luxaries, but I'm not sure what I can do to make a difference other then sharing my words and meaning.

    I'm still tearing down my own walls. Thus, I am still learning as I go. Sometimes I recognize one extreme before the other. Sometimes I'm not sure where the comfort even is until after I can recognize both extreme sides. Sometimes I just don't have enough knowledge to be aware of everything. But I always love and respect it all, and I'm not worried about making mistakes, cause I learn more from my mistakes then I do from anything else!
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  7. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    true love and communion is the very best you can do. stand for it and it makes a difference.
  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Presumably, since you also wrote
    You mean that what others believe shouldn't decide whether or not (or how well) they're respected.

    I believe coloured people are sub-human and should be treated as such.
    I believe that if you own something I want I should be able to take it, with no repercussions.
    I believe that Jews should be exterminated.
    I believe that anyone who doesn't believe what I do doesn't deserve respect, or life...

    Do all of those beliefs still qualify me for respect, regardless?

    Note: just in case the point sails past anyone reading this: those are NOT my beliefs, they're illustrations.
    This disclaimer included since we've recently have a number of cases where irony has gone over the heads of more than one poster and has been taken for sincere personal views.
  9. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    i don't know that he's talking about respecting everyone's beliefs, but respecting people regardless of them.
  10. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    So certain people are excluded from respect? For a reason other than what they believe? Please elucidate.
    Do those beliefs (listed) still warrant respect in the holder? Especially if acted upon?
  11. Pipes75 Registered Senior Member

    I kinda agree, but theirs more to it then just that for me.

    My problem is I use to work in a factory. Now I'm unemployed. I know I am capable of many jobs, but I want to do something more meaningful then to work for money. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the rest of my life yet.

    I am not worried about it, I know I'll be OK no matter what happens. But it is something that has consumed me lately. 'What do I want to do, and how can that help change the world?' are the questions that I keep running over and over again in my own mind.

    The one good thing is I worked for about 16 years in 2 different factories before I was laid off, and I still got enough savings to survive for awhile without too many financial concerns, although with nothing coming in, my savings are disapearing fairly quickly.

    I've actually made some spending money with gambling too. I'm a pretty solid poker player, and I follow football and hockey good enough that I'm decent at sports betting too. I actually am 100% sure I could make a living as a gambler if I wanted too, but I don't know if I want such an up and down lifestyle. My ability is not in question, it's whether or not I could make it important enough to me that I could do it or not, and right now, nothing is important enough to replace my Love for everything else. But many friends of mine reffer to me as the 'Rambling Gambler', for good reason. LOL
    The problem with me becoming a gambler for a living is that grinding out the cash tables in poker is alot of hard work. It takes time, practice and effort just like anything else. I don't know if I could dedicate so much of me to something that I don't think helps make the world a better place, even though I know I could be successful at it if I did!

    I need to find meaning in what I do for a living. I want to change the world. I'm not sure where or what is gonna be my next chapter, but I know it will be full of Love and Respect.
  12. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    i can relate. that's why i want to be a foster mom instead of an accountant. BUT the truth is, that whatever you do, whether gambling, accounting, or a factory job, you will be surrounded by people who need love, and it's love that changes the person at a time.

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  13. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    what i meant was NOT to exclude anyone from respect, as a human being, regardless of whether or not you happen to respect their beliefs.
  14. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    So we're back to my original point.
    Does someone who believes that coloured people are subhuman (and acts on that belief) deserve respect?
    Does someone who thinks that exterminating [select your own group] is a good idea deserve respect?

    So the claim (supposition?) is that there's something to be admired in people regardless (or in spite of) of their belief structure?
    Taking "belief structure" as the personal philosophy that guides their life: i.e. their outlook on life and according behaviour.
  15. Pipes75 Registered Senior Member

    Those 'beliefs' you listed infringe on other lives right to live. Those 'beliefs' don't have respect and love, but rather have disrespect and conditions on love. I said:
    'People generally are trying to do what they think is best, we just don't agree what is best. That's OK too, as long as we respect eachother.'
    The laughable extreme views you listed does not qualify as 'beliefs' that still respect others. They are misguided perceptions, they are not beliefs at all.

    I wouldn't blame or judge a person for those misguided views, but I would know that person is still obviously very lost.

    And even without blame or judgement, I would still intervene if I was in position to do so, if that person put any other lives in harms way.

    I love and respect you Dyw, and I don't judge, but you really should try to see things from more then just one limitting perception. After at least attempting to see both sides of the arguement, then you could offer much more valuable feedback to keep a intelligent conversation going. For some reason, you purposely jump to one extreme side all the time, I don't know if you just like stirring things up online, or if you really think this way all the time, but you seem to have tunnel vision. Guess what, their is more then one tunnel, and the tunnels all connect at some point!
  16. Pipes75 Registered Senior Member

    Good point, and very true.

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  17. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    yes, a person's humanity is to be valued regardless (in spite of) their belief structure. i don't respect or admire anyone because of what they believe i don't think. i disagree with a lot of people, but still value them and love them as human beings.
  18. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    So does holding a belief that doesn't respect others disqualify you from being respected?

    Can you you justify that distinction?

    So would you respect them or not?

    Truly? Considering you don't know me how much is your "love and respect" worth?


    Isn't that a judgement? You've just decided that you know what my perspective is...

    And another judgement.

    And another.

    Specious woo wooism.
    Insupportable nonsense.
  19. Pipes75 Registered Senior Member

    Not just people - all of life, all the light, all the dark, all the energy, all of that unknown, all of everything - should be loved and respected.
    Peoples personal philosophy that guides their life is always changing based on personal experience. We have the right to prevent others from harming others, but we don't have the right to judge or blame, and we should always have love and respect, even when intervention is required.
  20. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Do you love all movies equally? All books? All food?

    Do we? What gives you/ us that right?

    Huh? Why not?

    Again, why?
  21. Pipes75 Registered Senior Member

    No. Everyone deserves respect.

    Belief is the root or foundation of our way of thinking. In normal life we do not questions or filter our own belief. We take our beliefs as it is. It includes the values that we have. Perception is the method or way of thinking or point of view. Some people called it paradigm. It is the filter of any input based on our beliefs. Our perceptions are based on our beliefs, but the belief itself is not the same as our perceptions.

    Yes, everyone deserves respect.

    I love and respect everyone the same. So what it is worth really depends more on how much you value the love of a stranger. For some it might not be worth anything, but for others it could be something of great value.

    I honestly don't judge, but I do try to make assumptions so that I can try to put myself in the other persons shoes. My assumptions are sometimes well off, but I won't know better unless you tell me what assumptions are wrong.

    No it's not a judgement, cause I don't judge you based on my assumptions, whether my assumptions are right or wrong. I make my assumption here based on experience with you on many topics. Don't confuse my assumptions for judgement. I have to make assumptions if I don't have enough knowledge, if I'm going to try and put myself in someone elses shoes.I make assumptions regularly, but I still don't judge. Furthermore, I am well aware my assumptions are not always right, but making mistakes doesn't bother me. So tell me, what did I assume that is wrong, and maybe I can see things from your point of view a little better.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2009
  22. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    And again: WHY?

    Very clever. Totally useless.
    You haven't shown that what I called beliefs are not beliefs, you've simply reiterated (from a different source) on the distinction between belief and perception.

    For the fifth or sixth (or seventh) time of asking: WHY?

    So you claim to love and respect someone you nothing about? How much can it be worth? It's the equivalent of saying "That's a great movie. No I haven't seen it and never will. But it's great nonetheless". It's a blanket comment based on nothing at all.

    Ah I see: what you call assumptions I call judgement. You made the decision that I'm using tunnel vision, that I'm not seeing (or considering) both sides of the argument...
    Hmm, assumption...
    Oh wait:
    Explain to me again how you're not judging.
  23. Pipes75 Registered Senior Member

    Because everyone wants Love and Respect for themselves, so it goes both ways. You need to give it to recieve it.

    Even if you call those extreme views beliefs, they still didn't show respect or love for all. I can respect the individuals without believing the same. Furthermore I don't have to judge a person to stop them from harming another.

    If you have to keep asking 'why' when discussing the importance of Love and Respect for all, that is something you'll have to find for yourself. The why part is so obvious, I don't know where to begin trying to explain it to you.

    My love for all life can not be compared to a movie. Nice try. You've pointed out that the love of a stranger means very little to you, but that doesn't make it mean very little to everyone. I don't know Lori neither, but I can tell we both value eachothers Love and Respect. It can be worth as much or as little as you want it to. For me, Love and Respect are the most important things in the world, nothing else compares.

    I'm not judging because whether my assumptions are right or wrong, I will never feel it makes you more or less of a person. I will always have love and respect regardless.
    An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts.
    If anything, my assumptions are more like prejudgements then judgements, cause I don't have all the evidence or knowledge, but from my limitted experiences I have made some assumptions and prejudgements based on the evidence and knowledge I do have. I will never have all the knowledge so I will never judge, but I still assume, and try to learn from my mistakes.
    Instead of arguing about subtle differences that don't matter, why don't you tell me where my assumptions went wrong, so I can try to see things through your point of view.

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