<b>RD.</b> <i><b>state a beliefe/concept/principal/method of practice</b></i> Living is the only method of which I am aware. It's an individual experience, filled with ideas and possibilities. There's magic in your existence...life.
Oooops! Yes, Bowser. That's what I meant, but didn't say ... just implied it. Thanks for picking up on it. Sethmac: Why does there have to be a 'purpose'? I think Bowser got it right (even though the thought: 'Be fruitful and multiply' has been around for a while) and having a brew when it gets too heavy, or noisey, isn't a bad idea, Ripleofdeath.
Oh, yeah ... another thought(?) Ripleofdeath I find it kind of uncomfortable trying to imagine a 'democratic' tribal experience. The closest I came to it, an erzatz 'it', was at a commune what was trying to go tribal. God what a mess ... but at least the dope was good.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! hey all chagur- so do you suggest the idea of sigle ruler ? as the only practicable method of hinesight? #note how the most intelegent people never get involved in politics! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! LOL kinda makes me wonder.......? #current law and order of the tribe only seems to benifit the most perverted and fattest of fat cats. justice has been set up to be perverted by the rich! the tribe are now the playthings of the rich outcast mentaly ill people who foster their sickness in their family of wealth. so THE TRIBE as a concept no longer exists in most western countrys. and is actively destroyed by western govts and church groups around the world. it has seemed to be the case for hundreds of years. note comparrison of modern western medicine health care in usa with native american indian(no they did not transplant hearts as i am aware) but how many cancer and accute ilnesses are now being treated with things that some of the eastern and native american indians were using a few hundred years ago! kinda makes me LOL sometimes. groove on all Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
ripleofdeath, It seems to me that we are locked into a feeding frenzy--dog eat dog. Some of us, however, have larger appetites than others, maybe?
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! funny but sad Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! do you think that that is some part of human nature? i have not had any formal training in socioligy but have spent hours upon weeks/years pondering this to the ends of - is this natural? is it normal to want more than one can achive through honourable means? can we override this or cure it as a disfunction? breaking news on my tv new video by tool Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! they are somewhat of profit natured musicians i think Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! FREAKY SHIT MAN! i just watched the new tool vid i recomend u watch it(symbology) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! its nice to see real issues coming back to art/music and maybe soon the world???????????????? who knows! if we could only look past the hate of what we fear and, the fear of others that fosters their hate. ooooooppppppps im seing cycles again :/ maybe one of the best adverts for boilogical life term(the inability to continue the cycle of abuse in the 'first person') may we all try and cure the second and third Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! groove on all .............thoughts?
<i>"do you think that that is some part of human nature?"</i> I dunno, it depends on the individual and their perspective. <i>"i have not had any formal training in socioligy but have spent hours upon weeks/years pondering this to the ends of "</i> Nor have I, but how can it be ignored? <i>"is it normal to want more than one can achive through honourable means?"</i> Honorable means...that really doesn't apply in a capitalist system, a system which encourages competition for profit. <i>"can we override this or cure it as a disfunction?"</i> I'm afraid not. Few of us woud be satisfied with just the comforts of life. We are consumers. <i>"if we could only look past the hate of what we fear and, the fear of others that fosters their hate."</i> We would be left without a purpose.
Tribes so do you suggest the idea of sigle ruler ? as the only practicable method of hinesight? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Speaking from a somewhat limited experience with Native Americans, primarily Navajo and a bit with Pueblo and Lakota, and having gotten into discussions with a few elders, I'd say that 'ruler' is a concept that to this day is difficult for them to understand. 'Leader' in the sense of one who is best qualified to offer suggestions to the tribe and, when necessary, make decisions after having conferred with the tribe's shaman, and in the case of some tribes, the elder females who tended to live longer than the males and have a long memory line (greater database), would seem to be more appropriate. Something like Ghandi's "There go my people, and I must follow them; for I am their leader" (I hope I didn't mess the thought up too much). One of the most frustrating experiences to date was standing by while three tribal elders came to a decision as to whether or not the horse that had possibly broken a leg and was still stuck in the cattle gate it had tried to cross should be put down. It took them three hours to decide that yes, the leg was broken, the fracture was a bad one; and that the horse should be put down. If I'd had my weapon with me I would have made the same decision in a few minutes. But then, it wouldn't have been the Navajo way.
Sounds iike a true democratic ruling of the leading members of the tribe. Reminds me of our representation in Washington. Only at least the cheifs did come to a decision in the end. One that made sense, accounted for the condition, and a resolution of some kind with a reasonable outcome. And if it had taken 3 months (poor horse) instead of an afternoon, it would still be speedy as compared to our government. They couldn't even say we will have a raise! Fearing voter backlash, it was decieded that if no one said nay then it would pass automatically without anyone voting from then on. Where is our representation in that? Or the speed for that matter as it took a couple of sessions to even get the ball rolling to do such.
Democratic ruling It wasn't that either, Wet1. It was more like a decision made based on consensus. I think that if all three of the elders hadn't come to agreement, not a majority rules type of thing, that horse would have died of starvation. And they weren't leaders, they were just three of the elders that had to deal with the problem because they were the ones on the scene, so to speak. And it wasn't a ruling either, it was a decision as to what had to be done - they were the ones who decided and they were the ones who acted on their decision. As I said, the Navajo way.
The Navajo way I see. The Navajo way, this is something that I have no experience in. If you wish, please expand. If you wish not to post in public and it is not to forward then send me an e-mail. Call me curious. This is outside the realm of my experience (Native American culture) and I wish to understand. I mean do the elders speak for the tribe after a decision is made or do the elders simply ignore the tribe and do as decided? Is their decision explained to the others of the tribe before or after the action following the decision or is the explaination ignored as simply not necessary?
Oh shit, I've done it again. "The Navajo Way" isn't exactly something I've been ... like into. It's just the my way of expressing that there is a difference and I was fortunate enough to have a friend living and working on the reservation for a few years with whom I could crash with once or twice a year for a few weeks. You know, like have some time off, swing a leg over the old cycle and a few days later be in a place most Anglo's don't have contact with except maybe passing through. It's like realizing I was making the other person uncomfortable by keeping my eyes on them during a conversation - that isn't the Navajo way. Or that you don't refer to someone who has died by the name they were known by when they were alive - that isn't the Navajo way. Stuff like that. And like going to the Navajo Nation fair in Window Rock where many tribes had gathered and being on one side of the fairgrounds and realizing that I was hearing the merry go round on the other side of the fairgrounds ... even the kids were quiet. Or seeing how proud the WWII Navajo Code Talkers were of having served a country that shit on them ... and still shits on them. I guess that's all I mean when I refer to the Navajo way. I don't know if that helps any. And remember too, my experience wasn't a tribal one ... rather a Rez (reservation) where the old ones still remember the way it was ... and the young ones, for the most part, don't want to hear it.
uh uh... OK, I can see the youth rebellion thing as I guess to some extent we all go through it. The adults don't know crap and the youth of the world have it all. Only now I'm on the other side of the fence and come closer to knowing very little. And asking a lot of questions because of it. And yes, that is strange...not to refer to those who have passed on by name. I understand the thing about being proud to do what others could not, such as the code talkers, even though the treatment before and after did not reflect that importance.
The young ones ... Again, that's not quite the way I experienced it, not as youthful rebellion ... at least not in the way it's commonly experienced in our culture. There usually is still respect for the old ways, the ways the old ones knew ... lived. It's more of a matter of it being irrelevant, not appicable to the way the world now is. I've often wondered if the high incidence of alcoholism and suicide on the Rez, and even higher off the Rez, isn't related to feeling that 'once we were men' and that now ... Some of the old ones still live in hogans, most of the young ones live in house trailers (if they live on the Rez). The one light is that for some of the young there is a renewed interest in the old ways, the language of their people, the way things should be. But for too many it's alcohol. Sorry, I shouldn't be running on like this.
I said that I was curious. And that I am. I have heard there was a higher incidence of alcoholism. If you cage that which longs freedom and add demeaning conditions by attitude of those surrounding the area but not part of it, those within (it would seem) would suffer self-esteem.
I have a bit of a problem with that. Consider what happened to the Japanese and Chinese Americans, particularly to the Japanese in WWII, and they didn't get into an alcohol bag. Give it some thought. The easy answers are sometimes the ones most distant from the reality.
hey all chagur- is it possible they might have slipped past the listing of cultural grouping? just a thought. has anyone read 'the teachings of don won' by 'carlos castanarda' sorry for any spelling mistakes! the suicide thing is something i have thought about allot! i wonder if there is a certain threshhold of where a person might understand the ways of the world and feel no point in continuing? particularly in youth! continueing to drugs and pregnancy and crime? -point of view(mine)-the tribe has gone so these issues are not addressed in a family setting! thoughts...? groove on all Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hi all. Rip, I'm afraid you've thrown me a curve. I don't understand your expression 'slipped past the listing of cultural grouping'. Could you please elaborate. Ah yes, dear Carlos. I remember well the furior he caused with 'The Teachings of Don Juan' and a couple of subsequent books where he supposedly dug deeper in the the shamanism bit. Too bad he turned out to be a fraud - Don Juan never existed - It cast a shadow on cultural anthropology for a few years. Still, his books are a good read as long as you remember he was a storyteller who passed himself off as a social anthropologist. Suicide ... I'm not quite sure why. I can understand wanting to kill another, but self? It's incomprehensible to me. Finally, youth and disaffection: About the best media treatment of it comes from down your way; a movie 'Once Were Warriors' about the Maori. It didn't get much attention stateside, and it's a shame. It was a really powerful look at the loss of tribal self ... and in many ways, as far as I'm concerned, appropriate to Native American malaise. Hang in there.
hey all Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! chagur-hi- exp=do you think that the possiblity of drug problems with people=(japanese & chinese) from a result of the way they were treated could have been coverd up by the lack of cultural identification as a group of the problem?.......make sence? rather more mixed into the over-all population statistics? in the last few years i have learned that new zealand had chinese slave labour in some of the south island gold mines! im not sure of the exact time period but it was explained on a couple of tv progs that it was very normal for the time! :/ makes me sad to think there could be spin-offs of the traders down there.... we have several racist groups in new zealand the most prevalent is 'black power' and 'mongrel mob' it has been widely known that to gain entry to these groups one would have to rape or seriously assault someone and murder was a 'gold pass' as such. we have a small faction of kkk in the south island but they are nothing on the black power or mongrel mob both those have vast networks involved with tri-ad's and some well placed people in govt departments. and some of our mebers of parliment are known to have ties to them! with the cutting of our airforce attack planes it makes it unlikely that we can use 'their' convention's as a bombing target! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! not good to hear about that carlos fraud Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! another smite on the populos perception! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! i come from a background that is not too dissimilar to the psychology of the 'film' you mentioned and (havnt seen it/dont want to) only hope it can spawn some more thought of the real issue! how many times has each one of us turned our back on a situation of abuse???????????????????????????????????? we must learn and teach ways to deal and combat these socialy distructive doctrines. groove on all Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
