For the alternative theorists:

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by paddoboy, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Speaking of such things it turns out that Cancer is as old as multicellular life on earth, which makes sense when you think about it, from an evolutionary persepctive.
     
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  3. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Deep rocks have been cracked open and water isolated for billions of years released – the liquid may represent Darwin's “warm little pond” where life arose

    IT IS the closest we have ever come to finding Earth's primordial soup. Ancient rocks deep underground contain water that has been locked away for billions of years. It may never have been touched by life.
    Read More
     
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  5. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    i don't agree.
    i don't know about the last one but the first three are related to life and all life is interdependent.
    you can easily draw false statistical conclusions between them.
    yes, and it's posted in the thread.
    no.
    this is also posted in the thread.
    cryptic isn't the word for it.
    i love a mystery i guess.
    don't we all?
     
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  7. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    You'd probably be more convincing if you cited only paleontology and genetics. Those two sciences are about as unrelated as you can get. The fact that humans share something like 50% of the DNA of a banana tree is rather striking.

    Also, few laymen know that we can actually observe the evolution of bacteria in the laboratory. As we expose them to various (to them) pathogens and watch them adapt to survive, they go through as many generations in a year as we do in 20,000 years. That's been more than long enough for various populations of humans to evolve different skin pigmentation to adapt to northern vs. tropical climates, and to evolve the neoteny of lactase persistence in adulthood to adapt to the technology of dairy farming in northern Europe and other regions.

    The bald eagle, the body louse and the polar bear all speciated during our species's tenancy on this planet. Unfortunately our ancestors hadn't invented writing yet, so we can't read their observations of these events. We can date the invention of clothing to 70KYA because that's when the genetic clock tells us that body lice speciated from the lice that plague other animals, which we now call "head lice."

    Leopold must live in the Bible Belt, where the Religious Redneck Retards have considerable influence on the curriculum of public education. A few years ago, the Kansas state legislature actually passed a law requiring so-called "intelligent design" to be covered in high school textbooks with the same respect as real biology. Fortunately this lasted barely a year.

    The name Ayala is easily found on the internet, but I can't find any instances that refer to biology or evolution. Its most prominent appearance is as the name of an important region in the Philippines. Leopold owes us a citation for this one.
     
  8. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    This is what he is talking about (Leopold will not accept that it was a misquote - so evolution is disproved in his mind:shrug

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    , but for the love god do not get him going on this merry-go-round.
     
  9. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    It only needs to be statistically deterministic. When we roll a dice it may be truly random which side turns up each individual try, as long as after 1000 tries each side turns up about the same number of times. Interestingly however, we are not really able to judge if something was indeed truly random or not.
     
  10. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    It's not mind experiment, it's computational chemistry. It's the same thing like when they were looking at hydrogen and several other atoms to figure out the principle of how different atoms form and were able to predict the rest of known and unknown elements in the periodic table.


    I don't see any definition, I see arbitrary choice. To define "alive" you have to name the properties something needs to have in order to qualify. Like eating, growing and reproducing property, in which case a simple self-replicating polymer already fits the description.


    Is there any info we do not already have to reverse-engineer a complex molecule and calculate initial conditions form which it could spontaneously arise?


    Exactly.
     
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    11,567
    Ah. Thank you.
     
  12. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Leopold, now I think you are obfuscating. I had approached this with an open mind, hoping to find you had a defensible position on this, theistic or otherwise, but from your last few contributions it seems to me you are just wriggling and being difficult.

    I draw my own conclusions.
     
  13. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    Your second statement contains "if" and "not necessarily" which makes it vague. Let me rephrase: what is it Earth was lacking that you think was necessary for abiogenesis and could have only arrived with meteorites? Some amino acids? Which ones, and why do you think they could not have naturally occurred within the Earth itself?
     
  14. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Phylogeny precedes ontogeny, yes, I know it's not as popular as it used to be and that the Haeckelian for is disregarded, however, it does still have some bearing and relevance.

    Francisco J Ayala on Wikipedia

    Ayala has published 950 publications and 30 books. Recently published books include:

    Ayala, F.J. Am I a Monkey: Six Big Questions About Evolution. Johns Hopkins University Press: Baltimore, MD, USA 2010.

    Ayala, F.J. and Robert Arp, eds. Contemporary Debates in Philosophy of Biology. Wiley-Blackwell: London, 2009. ISBN 978-1-4051-5998-2

    Avise, J.C. and F.J. Ayala, eds. In the Light of Evolution: Adaptation and Complex Design. National Academy Press: Washington, DC. 2007. ISBN 978-0-309-10405-0

    Cela Conde, C.J. and F.J. Ayala. Human Evolution. Trails from the Past. Oxford University Press: Oxford, 2007.

    Ayala, F.J. Darwin y el Diseño Inteligente. Creacionismo, Cristianismo y Evolución. Alianza Editorial: Madrid, Spain, 231 pp. 2007.

    Ayala, F.J. Darwin’s Gift to Science and Religion. Joseph Henry Press: Washington, DC, xi + 237 pp. 2007

    Ayala, F.J. La Evolución de un Evolucionista. Escritos Seleccionados. University of Valencia: Valencia, Spain, 441 pp. 2006. ISBN 84-370-6526-7

    Ayala, F.J. Darwin and Intelligent Design. Fortress Press: Minneapolis, MN, xi + 116 pp. 2006.

    Ayala, F.J. and C.J. Cela Conde. La piedra que se volvió palabra. Las claves evolutivas de la humanidad. Alianza Editorial: Madrid, Spain. 184 pp. 2006 ISBN 84-206-4783-7

    Hey, J., W.M. Fitch and F.J. Ayala, eds. Systematics and the Origin of Species. On Ernst Mayr’s 100th Anniversary. National Academies Press: Washington, DC. xiii + 367 pp. 2005 ISBN 0-309-09536-0

    Wuketits, F.M. and F.J. Ayala, eds. Handbook of Evolution: The Evolution of Living Systems (Including Hominids), Volume 2. Wiley-VCH: Weinheim, Germany. 292 pp. 2005. ISBN 978-3-527-61971-9

    Ayala, F.J. Le Ragioni dell’ Evoluzione. Di Renzo Editore: Rome. 109 pp. 2005.

    Ayala, F.J. Human Evolution: Biology, Culture, Ethics. In: J.B. Miller, ed., The Epic of Evolution. Science and Religion in Dialogue (Pearson Education, Inc.: Upper Saddle River, New Jersey), pp. 166–180. 2004.
     
  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    No, it's not vague, and if you don't like it, tough luck buttercup.
     
  16. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    I do not see any other meaning but that it actually confirms meteorites are NOT necessary. If there is, please rephrase and clarify it in the following context: what is it Earth was lacking that you think was necessary for abiogenesis and could have only arrived with meteorites? Some amino acids? Which ones, and why do you think they could not have naturally occurred within the Earth itself?
     
  17. krash661 [MK6] transitioning scifi to reality Valued Senior Member

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    panspermia hypothesis
     
  18. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    What is IT that is more likely to occur on a meteorite than on Earth itself?
     
  19. krash661 [MK6] transitioning scifi to reality Valued Senior Member

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    well if you actually research this hypothesis, you will understand.
     
  20. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Really? Have you ever actually studied Science? Like, ever? When making statements like this I generally try and avoid talking in absolutes. It's a habit that I have picked up somewhere along the way and it seems to drive some people crazy (like you) as they try and read some deeper meaning into it.

    This has actually already been answered, but given your track-record elsewhere I'll spell it out for you.

    1. It's not about the neccessity of delivering amino acids to earth via meteorites because they can't form here, it's about the observation that meteorites, for example carbonaceous chondrules, contain not only amino acids but amino acids that are no longer a racemic mixture, and that mixture happens to be dominated by the same handedness that life utilizes.

    2. It's not about the Earth lacking anything, it's about the observation that when we conduct experiments synthesizing amino acids we invariably wind up with a racemic mixture unless we use a chiral catalyst or substrate, combined with the observation that every chiral substrate and catalyst forms an initially raecemic mixture that needs to be refined.

    3. It's not about it not being able to occur 'naturally' (whatever that means) on the earth itself, it's about the observation that much of the earths water was delivered to it by comets after its formation, and that those same comets are the source of carbonaceous chondrites which are observed to carry a preference for one handedness over the other.

    Do you understand now?

    The problem that we have is that we observe that amino acids occur as racemic mixtures because at some stage in the synthesis we go from an achiral molegule to a chiral one. Usually* the achiral molecule is planar and so there is a 50% chance of producing either chirality. We also observe that life exclusively uses one handedness over the other and so that leaves us with the question of why. Delivering a amino acids to earth that have already been refined by comets - whether that be through slight differences in solubility or circularly polarized gamma rays from a nearby supernova - at the same time that earths water is delivered to it provides us with one mechanism to bridge this gap.
     
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Atcherly, I wasn't referring to panspermia

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  22. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    I am challenging you to tell us. But you can not, because you never have any clue what are you talking about.
     
  23. krash661 [MK6] transitioning scifi to reality Valued Senior Member

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    i already told you,
    you mean you want me to spoon feed you ?

    panspermia is an hypothesis that pertains to microbes surviving and spreading through the universe,
    from,
    meteoroids, asteroids, comets, planetoids.
    it's considered a contamination .

    now actually try to use your own brain for once and research it.
    it's that simple.

    travel and conditions.

    so agian,
    well if you actually research this hypothesis, you will understand.
    (you will understand)- sorry i did not mean to intentionally lie.

    edit-
    there's also,
    radiopanspermia
     

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