Under a thread you had made a statement about what we deserve...rather..I think you said the ONLY thing we deserve is eternal death in hell. I am wanting to know why you think that. Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know you are a christian and what they teach you is we are nothing but bad sinful creatures who do not deserve anything ...especially the "gift" of heaven. Why? Also, why would your God...who is all so merciful- place those who do not abide by his laws in hell? The place that was created for not man but for Satan and his demons. Another question I have is if hell didn't exist...would you still follow God? Would you still try sooooo hard not to sin? Cause I'm thinking that a lot of people get sucked into the christian faith because they are scared of going to hell.
Flash-- One of my first memories of having a negative impression of the Jesus-God came when I was in third grade. The older sister of a girl in my class fell ill with something ... I never did learn what. But nobody would have known about it if Teri, my classmate, hadn't run around telling people that God had struck down her sister for telling a lie to their mother. This, of course, was the parents' summation. Well, we all know there's no atheists in foxholes. Parents and family were unable to counter the idea ... they assumed, apparently, that telling me such events were untrue would encourage me to tell lies. Thus I spent the next six months praying, every night, for my salvation and apologizing to God. After I learned better, I was dumb enough to try again. That came apart for its own reasons, which are irrelevant at this time. But the deepest impression I have from the sum of both of those experiences was that I did not, at any time, encounter a person who could express the idea of Good for Goodness sake. It always had to be because someone else said so, and that I (we) would be punished otherwise. thanx, Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Any one who believes that everyone is going to hell and that we dont deserve to go to heaven is obviously NOT a follower of Jesus of Nazareth (or Joshua of Bethlehem Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!). Jesus preached forgiveness and love. I believe that it was Jesus who said Love the sinner, Hate the sin. It was not until Paul and Peter that the concept became warped, and so called christians warp it even more. People blaming illness on lies are blindly following the bible, something which Jesus strictly preached against.
You raised some great questions. I shall try my best to answer them. """"ONLY thing we deserve is eternal death in hell."""" The Bibles says all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God. It also states that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. The whole idea is that whithout forgiveness and God's grace we all seem to be destined for hell. We cannot uphold the law God has given us and we cannot enter heaven by doing good deeds, like giving money to charity or by never cheating on a test. Though, if your faith in God does not produce "works" then your faith in God never was. The last statement contradicts itself, by definition, if you were to break it down but you get the point. We can't get to heaven by being a good person on our own. It's not us thats special, but God inside of us that makes us special. """"I know you are a christian and what they teach you is we are nothing but bad sinful creatures who do not deserve anything """ First of all, who is they? If your refering to the authors of the Bible then I'd have to agree with you. That is what they state. If your refering to me being spoon fed by my parents and church or being brainwashed by sunday school then I'd have to disagree with you. Wasn't raised Chrsitian. I was in a way raised sort of christian. Was raised roman catholic but it was just a tradition thing. Never talked about God nor read the Bible in my house and barely attended church. I did go to a catholic school for a year and a half but I never attended sunday school nor do I currently attend church. I have nothing against church. Its a great place to strengthen your relationship with Jesus and it is, afterall, the body of Christ. Most Christians who resent church usually stereotype it or they are in the cynical stage of their walk with Jesus. """Also, why would your God...who is all so merciful- place those who do not abide by his laws in hell?"""" It was once said that" God does not send people to hell, people send themselves there." But yes, God did create hell and he does send people their who do not accept his gift of eternal life. Not everyone things of hell as a literal lake of fire. Some view it as "separation from God" and some Christians illogically deny its exsistence. The earth is like a testing ground. God is the judge. You either pass or fail. There is a difference sometimes between goodness and kindness. It may be kind to do your children's homwork for them so they can go out and play but is that a good thing to do? God punishes sin. I don't understand everything. God's thoughts, as the bible declares, are higher than our thoughts. This helps ease my questions when I think about why humans have to suffer: Story of Job 'Job lost his family to "a mighty wind," his wealth to war and fire, and his health to painful boils. Through it all, God never told Job why it was happening. As Job endured the accusations of his friends, heaven remained silent. When God finally did speak Neither did the Lord apologize for allowing Satan to test Job's devotion to God. Instead, God talked about mountain goats giving birth, young lions on the hunt, and ravens in the nest. He cited the behavior of the ostrich, the strength of the ox, and the stride of the horse. He cited the wonders of the heavens, the marvels of the sea, and the cycle of the seasons. Job was left to conclude that if God had the power and wisdom to create this physical universe, there was reason to trust that same God in times of suffering.' "Another question I have is if hell didn't exist...would you still follow God? Would you still try sooooo hard not to sin? Cause I'm thinking that a lot of people get sucked into the christian faith because they are scared of going to hell."""" I'd still follow God but would I sin more? Yes. If there were no punishments for crime in our society there would be a lot more stealing and raping and murders than we see today. Thank God for the law that he gave us. It helps limit the spread of wickedness in our world. Raise a child strictly and let one do whatever he wants whenever and I think, over all, statistics would show a difference. Look at children in other countries who get cained and stuff. Th more laws and the harsher the punishment the less evil there is in society. There will always be acceptions to the rule but I wasn't seeking for some paradise land before I became a Christian. yes, the offer of heaven sounds great, but I was just looking for the truth. Is there a God? How am I supposed to act? Whats good and what isn't? How can I be a better person? """""One of my first memories of having a negative impression of the Jesus-God came """"" Why does this give you an ill impression of Jesus and not just the person who did these things? If a full grown adult commits a crime do you blame his parents? If einstien were arrested for shoplifting does that make e=mc^2 wrong? That is a very poor reason for unbelief. Hopefully, you have better and more thought out reasons for not believing in God but I doubt it. Most skeptics use circular arguments that are not well thought out. """Any one who believes that everyone is going to hell""" I don't know anyone, in their right mind, who thinks every single person that ever was, is, or will be is going to go to hell. Do you? """"and that we dont deserve to go to heaven is obviously NOT a follower of Jesus of Nazareth (or Joshua of Bethlehem)"""" You must deny portions of the new testament. How do you know which parts are true and which aren't? If you take the entire Bible as the word of God then you would realize that we don't deserve heaven. If we all got what we deserved then we would all be in a lot of trouble. """"Jesus preached forgiveness and love. I believe that it was Jesus who said Love the sinner, Hate the sin. It was not until Paul and Peter that the concept became warped, and so called christians warp it even more."""" Again, if you find portions of scripture warped how do you know that is was Paul and Peter's teachings that were warped and not Jesus'? """"People blaming illness on lies are blindly following the bible, something which Jesus strictly preached against."""" Where did Jesus say not to follow the Bible? The new testament wasn't even around when he was preaching. But I do agree (sort of) with what you said about blaming illness on lies. The story of the blind man in the Gospel of John (chapter 9) debunks it. Check out who sinned so that man was born blind. Niether his parents nor him. He was born blind so that the works of God may be manifested in him. Hope this helped. Vinnie Praise Jesus!!! [This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited December 07, 1999).]
Continuing my last post about John chapter 9. A physical calamity might befall on you because of sin. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah and also those people eaten by a bear for making wisecracks about elisha or elijas (one of them) bald head. But to tell a child or anyone that every sickness or pain they feel is from a lie they just told or something is biblically inaccurate. Aside from John 9, Genesis says the same. Eve's pain in child bearing would be greatly increased after the fall. There was pain before the fall. It didn't say she would now feel pain but that it would be increased. Vinnie Praise Jesus!!! [This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited December 07, 1999).]
Ilgwamh .... Vinnie, I have to admit that I find it odd how you summarize John 9--that the blind man was born so expressly for the sake of godly works. "And the LORD so loves His people that He might inflict great suffering so that they should prostrate themselves before Him and beg His mercy." Hey, I could write the Bible, eh? But it is those seemingly miniscule questions which crack the most perfect veneer of faith. * "Why does this give you an ill impression of Jesus and not just the person who did these things?" (re: 'My first negative impression') That's a great question Vinnie, and the only answer I can really offer is that, oh, I was EIGHT when this happened. Tell me, if someone told you that the wrong answer to your parents could get God to hurt you, would that really make your heart swell with love? If Jesus is unhappy with the way his people are representing him on this Earth, then he might want to get his resurrected butt off the sofa and explain a few things before the whole idea is lost. * "Again, if you find portions of scripture warped how do you know that is was Paul and Peter's teachings that were warped and not Jesus'?" Thank you, Vinnie ... I think it's important to acknowledge that possibility. But I do admit that when "moral" issues come up (what you say, who you screw, ad infinitum), much of what we accept as Jesus' words was written by those who came after him. * "I'd still follow God but would I sin more?" More the paragraph that goes with the statement than that statement itself. I think it's interesting what you have to say about punishment and evil. As I read your thinking, Singapore, then, is one of the most Godly nations in the world. In addition to public caning, there's a great evil about that land. If more than four people gather in public, they can be charged with Subversion of the Government; this discretion is left to the observing officers. Singapore's best-seller novels are mere tour guides wrapped in a mystery so thin Hollywood wouldn't touch it. Voting is a health risk ... choosing the opposition earns you uncollected garbage, substandard utility service, and a lack of police protection throughout the guilty voting district. Drool on the street, it's $2500 and jail time. And all in the name of making people happier and more peaceful. * "Most skeptics use circular arguments that are not well thought out." Skeptics of God itself? Or skeptics of the God of the Christians? I'm not sure it makes much difference. But pre-Christian thinkers from Greece and Rome gave us ideas that lasted through the Christian age. And major technological progress seems to worry Christians. Much of the Christian effort in the two millennia since Christ walked has to do with three things: establishing their credibility in the world; advancing their tangible authority in the world; and developing their own philosophy. That's not a complete summary, though, I admit. I'm addressing perceived general trends. But the circular, ill-thought arguments of the ancient Greek philosophers worked well enough to guide the world through today. I've mentioned it somewhere at these boards before, but I would like to offer one of my favorite circular arguments. Now I admit that faith might be as regional as dialect, because I don't often here this outside of two general forums: Oregon, and television ministries. The argument essentially goes as follows: * "You must _____ because the Bible says so." "Why because your Bible says so?" "Because God wrote the Bible and makes the rules." "How do you know God wrote the Bible?" "The Bible says so." I admit that if Einstein tried to make shoplifting an integral part of general relativity, that might damage the theory's credibility. But shoplifting itself has nothing to do with relativity. However, unless parents wish to remove themselves from the instruction of their child ... doesn't lying to them about a "truth" damage the truth? Apples, dear sir, are apples. And nails in the wrist are nails in the wrist. The two are not similar, except perhaps existentially. If Einstein shoplifted .... I have to thank you, Vinnie. I'll be laughing about that all night. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! thanx, Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
ilgwamh, Then why try? This sounds an awfull lot like "but he maid me hit him". Ultimitly it is the choice of the person comiting the act. If thier was no God there be no sin and no Hell. On the other hand if there was no Satan there would be no God and no Heaven. Are they one in the same? ------------------ The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world -Max Born [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 08, 1999).]
""""On the other hand if there was no Satan there would be no God and no Heaven."""" Major disagreement here. Satan is not at the same level as God. Not according to the christian faith nor the bible. Satan was created like everything else. Satan is not equal and opposite of God. He may be opposite in that he wants to be God and do his own will but he is definately not equal. God could have chosen just to not create Satan if he wanted to I guess. If he didn't create satan it doesn't mean he doesn't exist. thats very illogical. """Ultimitly it is the choice of the person comiting the act. If thier was no God there be no sin and no Hell.""" The non-existence of God is impossible. Do you know what the biblical definition of sin is? The "choice of the person commiting the act"? Yeah, I guess a police man chooses to arrest you if he knows your guilty of murder. But this scenario is a little different because if there wasn't a police man there would still be crime. If God didn't exist there wouldn't even be nothing. Yeah, so God sends you to hell But your free will is mainly responsible for it. You know the punishment for killing someone. If you perform this act you are subjecting yourself to that pumishment. Sometimes you just have to face the music. That is the way things are. When you jump off a building you fall. Sin must be punished accordind to God. Hell may be a blessing in disguise for non-believers. Those who reject God here on earth might be subjected to an even crueler punishment if they were forced into heaven. But thats just an opinion. """"Then why try?"""""" From what perspective should I answer this? According to athiesm life seems pretty meaningless and it doesn't matter if you try or not so you don't have to. Whatever floats your boat. But if you do not obey the law you will have to pay the consequences. Its your choice. The judicial system isn't going to buy the claim that "moral values are relative." From a Christisan perpsective we are to always strive to get better. Its called growth. We will never be perfect here in this universe but the bible clearly tells us how to act and the holy spirit convicts us of certain things. We can get better as we grow more but never perfect till the new world. Why try? Obediance to God. Why study science? We will never know every single little detail about everything like what it was like before our universe came into existence (was created). Why bother with science when our physical descriptuion of the universe will always be limited and never reach perfection? If you can walk into a battered womens shelter and not feel bad for those women then your probably not human. Human beings have hearts. We all know some things are right and some are wrong but stating otherwise is convienant for justifying our unbelief. """This sounds an awfull lot like "but he maid me hit him".""" Maybe you missed the statement I made after the one you were commenting on. I'll agree, it does sound a little like "you hit me first," but I'm not into the habit of judging God's judgements. God's not some immature middle schooler fighting in the cafeteria. """"""Vinnie, I have to admit that I find it odd how you summarize John 9--that the blind man was born so expressly for the sake of godly works."""""" Thats not my summary of John 9. Thats what the bible says. Here is John 9:1-3: 1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. It may seem unfair to us but God's thoughts are higher than ours. He doesn't experence the same limited perspective as us. It comes down to trutsting him. Thats what you call faith. Faith doesn't mean blindly believing in some magical being because you need to feel important by having some purpose in life. """"much of what we accept as Jesus' words was written by those who came after him."""""' What do you mean by after? Are you talking centuries or like 20 years? """"""* "You must _____ because the Bible says so." "Why because your Bible says so?" "Because God wrote the Bible and makes the rules." "How do you know God wrote the Bible?" "The Bible says so.""""""" Thats what you call bad apologetics and is a good way to misinterpret the bible. Its pretty funny when people say the bible is true because of that verse. Its spoken out of ignorance. These people probably have no idea what the canonization of the new testament means. """"However, unless parents wish to remove themselves from the instruction of their child ... doesn't lying to them about a "truth" damage the truth?"""""" Yes it does when they are children. But when they grow up hopefully they will begin to think for themselves. When you grow up you are responsible for your own actions and are in control of yourself in this world. The fairy tales your parents told you as children, whether they really believed them or not, isn't much of an excuse when your supposed to be thinking on your own as an adult. """""""Singapore, then, is one of the most Godly nations in the world. In addition to public caning, there's a great evil about that land. If more than four people gather in public, they can be charged with Subversion of the Government; this discretion is left to the observing officers. Singapore's best-seller novels are mere tour guides wrapped in a mystery so thin Hollywood wouldn't touch it. Voting is a health risk ... choosing the opposition earns you uncollected garbage, substandard utility service, and a lack of police protection throughout the guilty voting district. Drool on the street, it's $2500 and jail time. And all in the name of making people happier and more peaceful.""""" I said that stricter laws would most likely limit crime but when the laws themselves go against something the Bible teaches they are not Godly. God's law is just ang holy. It may not seem fair but we are to submit to authority if it doesn't contradict the bible whether we like it or not. It doesn't say we can't try to make things better though. a Godly nation is one that follows Jesus. In an ecomomic utopia there may be a lot less sin but without Jesus at its center it is not a Godly nation and it probably couldn't exsist in the first place without Jesus at its center. Vinnie Praise Jesus!!!
Ilgwamh-- * "The fairy tales your parents told you as children, whether they really believed them or not, isn't much of an excuse when your supposed to be thinking on your own as an adult." So what's your end of that tale? After all, I have had the experience of Lutheran confirmation and of attending a Catholic high school. Here I could cite a preacher who liked throwing Bibles at kids when he was angry, and a school teaching administration largely obsessed with matters of authority. It's kind of like some of the new criminal laws going around that leave a person's intent open to a police officer's perception ... we have laws in Seattle where an officer can decide if he thinks the items you carry on your body will be used to commit even the smallest of crimes. So it was in school. If our caring guides thought a rule was broken, the important thing became punishing the alleged guilty, and not determining what actually was happening. But you're right. A lifetime of negative experiences surrounding the people who are supposed to be God's more direct instruments of interaction ... I guess I owe some years of my life to the Baptists, and then the Episcopals if that doesn't work out, and then the Kingdom Hall, the SDA's, the Latter Day Saints ... and then, when I'm fifty, will I be able to say that I really think God's method of relating to the world stinks? Of course not. Because, as Truestory points out, those churches are wrong. So then I should build my own "Christian" philosophy, right? And then put up with other "Christians" who don't like my way of viewing Jesus? (Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I've NEVER seen Christian infighting.) So what is your end of it, Vinnie? How long have you lived without salvation? What did you do with your time? If you're supposed to be thinking for yourself, I'm curious when that process started. * "What do you mean by after? Are you talking centuries or like 20 years?" If I remember my theology classes in high school and college correctly, only one of the Gospels was written at a time when the authors could have been alive during Jesus' life. If ... if, if, if I remember all of my numbers correctly, we're looking at the Gospels being written between 60-200 years after Christ. (Anyone, anyone? I know those numbers are fuzzy, but not by much.) Furthermore, as I remember the 1993 Holy Week lectures at University of Oregon ... a local Christian group sponsored a talk called "Understanding Homosexuality." Apparently, for the organizers, it was a plea for help to understand. For all the New Testament they tried to throw at people to demonstrate that Jesus didn't like gay people, it all came from various epistles. None came from the Gospels, none came from the Acts of the Apostles. So, then, we enter a question of whether the ideas Jesus did not speak of in the Gospels are irrelevant to his ministry, or if they remained in place by default. These include various laws from Leviticus and so forth. But the words people often claim as God's law frequently come from portions of the NT that are not the Gospels. In other words, those parts are mortal human males' interpretations of God's law. * "In an ecomomic utopia there may be a lot less sin but without Jesus at its center it is not a Godly nation and it probably couldn't exsist in the first place without Jesus at its center." Probably, probably. So it's the name Jesus, and not the principles, eh? That's what confuses me the most. But aside from your speculative conclusion, I'm curious how you see the intervention of various Christian nations in events in India (thru 1947), the United States (Manifest Destiny, slavery), Japan (our first flotilla ever to Japan actually bombed the coastline)? These events all took place because a collection of individuals who thought of themselves as Christian thought they were doing the Godly thing. How about that African plunder to support the American slave trade? Placing Christianity at the center of a nation might add a certain strength to the nation, but history shows that all their neighbors ought to be nervous. Or, it could be about the principles and not the name Jesus. For instance the Muslims, Hebrews, and Christians ... if they stopped worrying about the name of their God ... after all, they are of the same original tradition. Their principles don't seem that far apart. It's just the individuals that choose to avoid reconciliation because they MUST have their God's name be the official one for all humanity. thanx, Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Hey Vinnie, You know, you are really smart, and have contributed some very intelligent and inspired debate here. Did I read in one of these strings that you are in high school still? Maybe I misread. You sound much more mature than that??? Also, when you said something about "the cynical phase" of getting religion, you really struck a chord with me. That's me. Ms. Cynicism. Did you go through a phase like this? How did you get over it, cause it bugs me, angers me, and I can't help but think that it is futile. Keep up the good work! ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Jobs family, possessions, and health were not taken away by any accident or gust of wind. God and Satan collectively took them, in order for God to prove a point to Satan. Satan turned out to be right, which is kind of interesting. Youre right-I am ignoring parts of the New Testemant. Like the parts not documenting Jesus life,and the parts written by non-apostles. Jesus strictly preaches against blind faith. Although he was a devout Jew, he did not let the strict rules get in the way of charity and the will of god.
None of the gospels was written during the life of Jesus..after all, they all describe his death and the events shortly after. Most biblical scholars think that the gospels werent written by apostles, but "second generation" disciples. The first gospel was written in apporximately 58 CE, and the other three biblical gospels were written sometime after this but before 130 CE. About 130 CE is when the books to be included new testemant were decided, so the gospels had to have been written before this. It took christians a while after the death Jesus of Nazareth to write down the events of his life. They didnt feel they needed to, because the general feeling was he would return to earth within the next few years. because of this, the accounts got a little fuzzy and varied over time.
Ilgwamh, My question has all ways been and all ways will be untill I get a decent answer. How do you know the bible is the true word of god and not a great peice of fiction? and one more... Do you belive in orginized religon?
666- I am not advocating that the bible is the unquestionable word of a divine entity (even though I do personally believe that). But, the bible is not a work of fiction. Much of it is not verifiable archeaologicaly, but a large portion of it is. For instance, 3 of the books of Moses are a collection of Jewish law. The books of Judges, Kings, Ruth, and Samuel are embellished documentary of the early jewish kingdoms and heroes. Believe it or not, there is a lot of archeaologically verified history in the bible.
Hey 666, Did you get the e-mail that I sent you? ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
tiassa, Given the fact that you have emphasized many times that you do not "understand" me, I'd appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth when posting to others, such as: What I said was more along the lines of... I do not condone certain anti-Christian actions of certain individuals or groups of individuals (which you dwell upon) who claim to do their dirty deeds in the name of God/Jesus Christ. The actions of certain individuals who claim to be members of mainstream Christian Churches, over time, have left some with a bad feeling about mainstream churches. However, this does not mean that "churches" are wrong. I do not believe that I ever made the type of stereotypical statements about "churches" which you attribute to me... That's more your style.
