For Vinnie

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Flash, Dec 6, 1999.

  1. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    666,

    The way that I know that the Bible is the truth, and not a piece of fiction, is by looking honestly at my life, and at history, and at society, at my feelings, and I look for answers for what I don't understand. We all have things that we cannot reconcile alone. Some people use that as an arguement to deny the existance of God, the fact that we can't reconcile everything that happens ourselves, but I look to God for an answer, a reconciliation, and He gives me one every single solitary time. If you honestly seek the truth, you definately will find it. That's not just a trite little phrase, it's really true. You have to humble yourself first to God though, and honestly seek Him for guidance like a child would look to a parent. You have to somehow come to the conclusion first that there is a God, and that you wish to know the truth so much, that you are willing to pray to Him in Jesus name, and ask for His forgiveness through Jesus. You don't have to have an answer for anything, or understand everything, all you really have to do is come to the conclusion that you DON'T have all the answers. You can't get to the truth, if you don't even believe in the God that will give it to you. Usually people get to this state of humility when bad things happen, when they are in pain, confused. That's the effect of sin in this world and in your life. How it's touched you. If you're smart, you will use this pain to find God, and to find true peace, what everyone is looking for, sometimes throughout their entire lives. People rationalize rejecting God because of the pain, the effects of our very own sin, which we choose to perpetuate of our own free will. They say that if our God is truly all powerful and loving that He would surely shelter us all from it. But that would take away our free will. He gave us His Word to shelter us. He gave us His Son to shelter us. He gave us His forgiveness, for the mere acknowledgment of His very existence. And yet we still choose to sin. And God designed this universe so that the effects of our sin, actually work to bring us back to Him. That is grace. And that is truly a mind-blowing concept when you realize what it truly represents. The unconditional love that God has for you, that you happen to be denying exists.

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    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
     
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  3. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    Lori,

    Unconditional love? Oh yeah, you mean unconditional on the condition that you accept Jesus Christ as your savior. Just a minor detail, I realize, but I thought it needed a little more emphasis, just in case anyone missed that point.

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    www.indigenousrocks.com
     
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  5. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Searcher,

    I get your point. But unconditional is just that. He loves you the same whether you redeem your salvation or not. For you to reject Him is His greatest sorrow. The very purpose to which Satan serves. You must see though, that logically, you could not possibly find salvation or find God through a Saviour whom you do not even aknowledge exists! That just doesn't make sense!?

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    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
     
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  7. Corp.Hudson Registered Senior Member

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    Lori and Searcher (mostly Lori): If you are trying to get ppl to believe the bible is true, you are going about it the wrong way. Summed up, your argument reads "The bible is true because god told me so." Use historical facts and the parts of the bible that actually can be proven to make it easier to believe the parts that require a leap of faith.

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  8. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Corp,

    I don't know that is exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the Bible is true because God told me so. I'm saying that I believe the Bible to be true because when I have honestly examined myself, my life, and my world, I have found it to be true. The confirmation from God did not come until after I had already concluded for myself. That is faith, and the confirmation is the Holy Spirit. You can present the Gospel, and some will conclude that Jesus was just a man. That the miracles never took place. That Mary wasn't really a virgin. That the resurrection never occurred. You can present the prophecy, and some will conclude that it is just coincedence, or deny the fulfillment altogether, even when it is so obvious. You can present creation, and some will say that all this "just happened", or look to aliens? I can't come up with a better way to communicate the Word than through witness and testimony. I know that I am no different than most people, and if God spoke to me, then He is certainly speaking to everyone else too, they're just not listening.

    ------------------
    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,374
    Truestory:

    Words in your mouth? Make you a deal ... don't assume you know how I prioritize, and I'll drop my petty obligation to remind you through demonstration. It's obvious you don't get it.

    In the meantime, why don't you clarify your position on the churches? You'll argue with people's statements about the churches but it all comes down to the old adage, "Well, he's not really a Christian."

    Furthermore, I will quote your phrase directly, and offer a counterpoint using the same device of justification you employ. And tell me why it doesn't work ....

    * Truestory: "The actions of certain individuals who claim to be members of mainstream Christian Churches, over time, have left some with a bad feeling about mainstream churches. However, this does not mean that "churches" are wrong. "

    * Counterpoint: "The actions of certain individuals who claim to be members of the Nazi philosophy, over time, have left some with bad feelings. However, this does not mean that National Socialism was wrong."

    Guess what? That's how open you leave your justifications. I understand that it wasn't you, when I was 14, telling me I needed to ask my Mommy if I could buy a rock 'n' roll album. I understand that it wasn't you, when I was 19, asking to fire employees of the State of Oregon suspected to be homosexual. I understand that you didn't put the torch or glowing pins to any of the thousands murdered by the Catholic church during the Inquisitions. But I also understand that that Nazi over there didn't torch six-million people.

    So, what's your perspective here? Frankly, I've known plenty of Christians, Communists, Satanists, Nazis, and so forth through my life. It isn't that none of them have anything to contribute, it's just that I'm tired of explaining to people that No, I'm not obliged to kowtow to your High Invisible Concept. Of course, I haven't given people enough of a chance, have I? What words in your mouth now, but your own? So should I spend the rest of my life going from person to person and church to church with my lantern held high seeking the one Christian I will never have to part from philosophically? I might ask you why you haven't done the same for Witches, Muslims, Atheists, or otherwise.

    So while I choose not to be a Nazi because I don't want that kind of philosophical identification, what's your excuse? I choose not to be Christian because the amount of time I've spent among the faith demonstrates it to be useless in relation to my personal vision. I am always open to the idea that such conclusions can change, but I don't feel obliged to go out and accept lies in order to prove myself wrong and feel better about it in the morning.

    So, someone doesn't like Christianity ... they're wrong because you know better. Someone doesn't like churches ... they're wrong because you know better. Any Christian in the world will tell me something similar to what you write when describing their own faith. But your constant sidestepping such issues with vagaries ... we know more about what you think is NOT proper for Christians and their churches than we do of your ideas of propriety.

    Okay, I'll admit it ... you never did write the words "The Churches are wrong". But for somebody who defends their presence, you do little to dispel the veil of negativity emanating from the institutional body Christian. And all you can manage are poor excuses and nitpicking someone's summary of a philosophy you insist on standing by, but refuse to state forthrightly? Come on .... if you can't face the central issues, stop spinning the threads aside.

    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

    [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited December 13, 1999).]
     
  10. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    WOW! Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

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    Tiassa, I do get your analogy, but I wanted to consider some other things. It seems that you want to bring an identity to the church that is of it's own, when I can't separate the entity from the human beings who operate within it. And that is only speaking of what we refer to as organized religion, because you are truly not speaking of the church as it is meant or defined in the Bible. That's why you guys don't understand each other, you're speaking different languages. In the Bible, the church is referred to as those who have been saved in Christ, and yes, that refers to sinners, people who make mistakes. It does not however, refer to those who attend a church to worship. Being saved does change a person. That you do not believe, but it really does. Otherwise you are not truly saved. Because when you really get honest, if you don't live your life for Him, then you must not truly believe. I think that you may be conveniently overlooking a lot of good that the Word of God and the Holy Spirit of God has brought in this world. You seem unaware.

    ------------------
    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
     
  11. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Good morning, Lori:

    A comment about your statement,

    So simple. So true. Why this happens was explained to us repeatedly by the all-knowing. It is another simple truth and it is demonstrated repeatedly, even in this forum... Many know God's words, they know that they have heard God's message but they choose to ignore it. Although less powerful in the long-run, there is another force which humans tend to listen to and, unfortunately, it will rule the earth for a short period in the near future. After that, the beast will be destroyed and the time will come for all of us to face God, whether we accepted or rejected God while living on this earth or not.

    At that time, not only will we ALL acknowledge the existence of God, we will all be begging for God's mercy... The very thing that some deny exists... Unfortunately, for some, it will be too late.

    Time is running out. Right now, however, it is not too late.

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 14, 1999).]
     
  12. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    tiassa,

    Sorry tiassa, it would be unfair of me to make deals with intoxicated persons...

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    "Petty" is a great description with respect to your arguments... As I've stated before, "etreme" comes to mind too... You're right, I don't get what you mean by my supposedly assuming how you prioritize. Any discussion I have had with you has been based on what you have told me in your posts... Perhaps I have misunderstood you? That's O.K. If that is the case, I can accept it and deal with it... And, if I see that you have misunderstood or misrepresented something which I have said (or not said in this case) I have no problem asking you not to do that, even if it pisses you off or you perceive it to be my telling you how to live... which, of course, it is not. I can accept and deal with that... I can also accept and deal with your questions for clarification... I have no need to sidestep anything as you would attempt to have us believe.

    In my opinion, churches serve a very useful purpose for many individuals. They help to bring people into communion with each other and with God. Many churches provide large-scale programs in which their members can participate to actually perform the types of acts of humanity which Jesus taught. Some churches remain more focused on Christianity than others. I consider those that do to be wonderful institutions. As Lori pointed out, however, the Christian church which I speak of are those who have truly been saved in Christ. Individuals who have truly been saved might or might not be members of a variety of "organized religions" which have "Christianity" at the core of their foundation, philosophy and purpose for organizing. True Christians might congregate with other Christians or, they might not. They might attend religious worship ceremonies in structures built of various materials... bricks, mortar, two-by-fours and sheetrock, etc... or, they might not.

    Well, I don't know if I've ever actually used that "adage" but I can't say that I necessarily disagree with it, tiassa, can you? In general, that type of adage can be applied to distinguish the difference between those who are what they claim to be and those who claim to be something they are not. After all, "the churches" are made up of many individuals and there is such a thing as a true Christian and there is such a thing as one who calls themself a Christian but are not. And yes, there are those who even perpetrate greedy, destructive, murderous evil acts in the name of Christianity... They are lying... There are many in this world who purport themselves to be something that they are not... they can be found in all walks of life... they can be found among believers and non-believers, Christians and non-Christians. That brings us to the next subject:

    Well, tiassa, that depends... did the evil and destruction perpetrated by Nazi Germany under Hitler's rule represent the core foundation, philosophy and purpose of National Socialism? Or, did the acts of Hitler and his regime give an otherwise good ideology a bum rap??? The murderous acts which you point to, committed by certain members of churches, went directly against the core foundation, philosophy and purpose of Christianity.

    By the way... Hitler was definitely not a Christian. Does that mean that I should hold all of Hitler's acts against those who share his non-Christian philosophy and associate all non-Christians with the acts of Hitler and his evil regime?

    You don't have to explain it to me, tiassa. As I've said many times before, you have the gift of free-will to do what you wish. You are not "obliged" to use it in any manner other than what you choose. You're an adult now and you are free to live your life as you wish. In my opinion, I don't think it's a matter of giving people a chance. I think you would do yourself a great service, though, by getting off drugs, getting over your bias of "the churches" and giving a one-on-one relationship with God a chance.

    Tiassa, we are different in that I have never looked to other people to validate my personal relationship (or non-relationship) with God. There is at least one Christian, however, who did dwell on this earth, from whom I will never have to part from philosophically... that is, Jesus Christ.

    The people are not the faith, tiassa. If you've truly listened to Jesus Christ, understand what true Christianity is about, have decided that it is a lie and feel good about it then, good for you. To be honest, though, you do not sound like a very happy person but, you are not "obliged" to live your life otherwise.

    tiassa,

    I don't think I am as concerned with who is "right" and who is "wrong" as you are. What I am more concerned about is helping to spread God's word so that as many people as possible can receive God's message and share in eternal salvation.

    To turn the table... So, someone likes Christianity... they're wrong because you know better, tiassa? Someone likes churches... they're wrong because you know better, tiassa? Any non-Christian in the world will tell me something similar to what you write, tiassa, when describing their lack of faith.

    Sorry, tiassa, but I don't think that's what is important.

    Sorry, tiassa, only you can dispel the veil of negativity which, as you pointed out previously, you can find anywhere you choose to find it.

    tiassa,

    Although we think very differently, I believe that I am very forthright and honest with you. I have never been one to side-step an issue. There are many of us here who don't answer the questions of others to their full satisfaction. Much of that has to do with the strong wills and opinions of many who post. Sorry if you interpret my intentions differently. Although I would like to see you and many others saved before it's too late, I am not trying to "force" you to believe anything you don't want to believe.


    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 14, 1999).]
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,374
    Lori--

    Yeah, that one was kinda loose.

    As to your point ... "And that is only speaking of what we refer to as organized religion, because you are truly not speaking of the church as it is meant or defined in the Bible." You are most correct here ... the problem is that this applies to many people who consider themselves part of that biblically defined church. Personally, I think Christians have got a great thing ... I just believe that the greater part of them are executing its potential improperly.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  14. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Well then I agree with you. Whoa?

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    Just don't throw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater, dude!!!!

    ------------------
    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 14, 1999).]
     
  15. 666 Registered Senior Member

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    378
    Lori,

    Somthing I have seen a lot of in your posts lately is the word "honesty". What is honesty? Do we achive honesty with our selves through assumptions or through fact? A bleif in a God requires faith. Faith requires an assumption and I do not belive that we can achive honesty through assumptions. I know the above may seem like I am picking on the small little details, but this is something I belive is relevant. Regarding pain in one's life. Why do we have to chose to be on the side of a God or on the side of Satan? Can we use the pain in our lives (and we all have it to some degree) in a positive manner with out a God? My belief is that life can form and thrive with out a God or Satan. I don't need a God to tell me what is right and what is wrong. Every day I wake up chug a cup of coffee and smoke a cigarette. After that I go to work and do what I belive in my heart is right. If I am wrong and there is a God and these actions lead me to hell, then so be it. I will have gone there on my own terms and God would not be worthy of having me in heavan.

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    My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 14, 1999).]
     
  16. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

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    Hi tiassa.
    """""""So what is your end of it, Vinnie? How long have you lived without salvation? What did you do with your time? If you're supposed to be thinking for yourself, I'm curious when that process started.""""""


    When I took off the mask that was blinding me my entire life and let go of my pride. Thats when God started opening up my eyes. I am not saying I am prideless. Just that I stopped baing as self centered as I was and stopped conforming to the world. I let go of it. Salvation came about a year ago. The process of me thinking for myslef started 2 to 3 years ago. My primary passion in life was science and it made me look at things differently than anyone else. Made me view things scientifically. I questioned everything and to an extent I still do.

    """"So then I should build my own "Christian" philosophy, right? And then put up with other "Christians" who don't like my way of viewing Jesus?"""""

    Why build your own? I'm sure there are plenty of people that would share the same christian philosphy as you. More than you think. And most of the time the differences are really petty anyways.

    """If ... if, if, if I remember all of my numbers correctly, we're looking at the Gospels being written between 60-200 years after Christ.""""

    I'd say your half right. Probably 60 years after Jesus life most, if not all, of the books were written. Revelations was the last I believe. Not sure on the date. The 200 is way off.

    """"For all the New Testament they tried to throw at people to demonstrate that Jesus didn't like gay people, it all came from various epistles. None came from the Gospels, none came from the Acts of the Apostles. So, then, we enter a question of whether the ideas Jesus did not speak of in the Gospels are irrelevant to his ministry, or if they remained in place by default. These include various laws from Leviticus and so forth. But the words people often claim as God's law frequently come from portions of the NT that are not the Gospels. In other words, those parts are mortal human males' interpretations of God's law.""""""

    When you pick and choose which pieces of scripture you want it becomes your opinion and not Gods word. What makes the first 4 books better than the rest. They to were written by humans.

    Logically, you must take the entire Bible or none of it. The puzzle is incomplete if you remove pieces.

    """""These events all took place because a collection of individuals who thought of themselves as Christian thought they were doing the Godly thing. How about that African plunder to support the American slave trade? Placing Christianity at the center of a nation might add a certain strength to the nation, but history shows that all their neighbors ought to be nervous.""""""

    A Godly nation from a Christian perspective has Jesus at its center. That doesn't mean it will be sin free. By definition a christian is not someone who does good deeds and never messes up. A christian is a follower of Christ.

    A godly nation from the worlds perspective is more 'humane' than others. It does good things. It allows freedom. Thats a stereotype of a godly nation in the world's eyes.

    """""Their principles don't seem that far apart. It's just the individuals that choose to avoid reconciliation because they MUST have their God's name be the official one for all humanity.""""

    Their principles may not seem far apart but that depend on your perspective. You can be two feet from someone while being whole world apart (earth is circular). A lot of religions may have consistent values and even the same "God" buts thats where the similarities end. Jesus said He is the only way to the father, thus he is the only way to eternal life.

    Hi lori.
    Yes I am still a high schooler.

    """Also, when you said something about "the cynical phase" of getting religion, you really struck a chord with me. That's me. Ms. Cynicism.""""""

    I knew I would. Your the reason I posted it.

    """"Did you go through a phase like this?""""

    Yes a short one.

    """How did you get over it, cause it bugs me, angers me, and I can't help but think that it is futile.""""""

    It is futile. We experience many different stages. I'm not sure all the time how we get over them. Later on we usually look back on them and realize how much we have grwon since then. They help us grow. Do you get a lot of christian fellowship? Being with other christians should help. Pray, devour god's word, and go to church. These things will help you.

    I still get a bit cynical when I see stuff tv where preachers are asking for money and stuff but we have to realize all we here about seems to be the bad stuff. If the christian church was actually bad enough to make us cynical of each other than christians would not be stereotyped as "holy people" that always do good. Not everyone who calls Jesus is really a Christian but there are a lot of great people out there. Proabaly a lot more than you think. Lots and lots of people who love Jesus just like you.

    Hi 666.
    """"My question has all ways been and all ways will be untill I get a decent answer. How do you know the bible is the true word of god and not a great peice of fiction?"""

    Prophecies, the Bible seems to be able to predict the future. That fact seems to call for the divine. The pretty much historical fact of Jesus' resurrection. The fact that genesis agrees with the findings of modern science. I'm talking real science. Not yec. The Bible provides a consistent and cohesive world view. The best one we have today that can put all the pieces of the puzzle together. Archaeological finds help lend some credibility to the bible. Its historical accuracy. The fact that is does not contradict itself (this will most likely draw the most criticism). The change that occured in the apostles. Pauls conversion. I'm not saying these things prove the Bible and I did kind of avoid the canonization of the books but the bible has enough credibility to leave you with no excuse for not at least reading it. Maybe it is true. Ask God. Say if you really exsist and wrote this book show yourself to me as I read it. Give it a shot. Read it with an open mind and eamine things. If you have questions or see contradictions ask about them and study them yourself. Look to see if they are real contradictions or just a mistranslation or scripture taken out of context.

    """"and one more... Do you belive in orginized religon?""""""

    Can you please tell me what you mean by organized religion? I'll will say this much before I get more info: church is good if thats what you meant.

    tiassa
    """""'Personally, I think Christians have got a great thing ... I just believe that the greater part of them are executing its potential improperly."""""

    I agree and disagree. My statement would go like this:

    Personally, I think Christians have got a great thing ... I just believe that a MINOR part of them are executing their potential improperly. A few bad apples stereotypes christians as a rotten bunch. But this is illogical. One bad kid (a common christian) doesn't mean the entire school (the church) is bad. And if there is a bad teacher (a minister) it also does not make the entire school bad. But its the few bad teachers that we hear about on the news. We don't seem to here about the good ones.

    666
    """A bleif in a God requires faith. Faith requires an assumption and I do not belive that we can achive honesty through assumptions. I know the above may seem like I am picking on the small little details, but this is something I belive is relevant."""

    This faith in God is more like trusting him. not that you have to just blindly believe in him. There is sufficient evidence to allow us to maintain a rational faith in the God of the Bible.

    """""""Why do we have to chose to be on the side of a God or on the side of Satan?""""

    Your statement seems to assume some sort of duality. Its not that you choose God or satan but that you choose God or you do not choose God. Choosing God means accepting that you are a sinner and getting forgiveness. YOu must realize that others aren't perfect just like you aren't and you have to forgive them when they sin against you. Christianity is more of relationship than a religion. If you read the bible and take it as a whoile you will understand this.

    """'I don't need a God to tell me what is right and what is wrong. Every day I wake up chug a cup of coffee and smoke a cigarette. After that I go to work and do what I belive in my heart is right."""""

    You can't logacally say what is right and what is wrong without an overlying truth. Who do you think gave you your conscience? Our view on things is not perfect because sin has distorted our vision. The bible says
    our own consciences judge us. If your own conscience doesn't judge yourself as a sinner and a bad person in the christian sense then there is something in the way, probably pride.

    """"I will have gone there on my own terms and God would not be worthy of having me in heavan.""""

    Yep, its pride. Thats whats keeping you from seeing God. When you drop that then you will see God. Your eyes will be opened. Thats what happened to me. We are all in the same boat.

    Vinnie

    Praise Jesus!!!



    [This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited December 15, 1999).]
     
  17. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    666,

    What I'm talking about is being honest with yourself about your pain. Everybody's got it to one degree or another, right? Sometimes I get the impression that some people out here haven't experienced the same pain, but then someone gets honest and I have hope! We all do eventually, continuously to one degree or another. That's the effect of something the Bible calls sin. Getting honest with yourself means not to rationalize about your own behavior, or to ignore your feelings and where they come from and why. When I do that myself, I see God. Witness to God everywhere and always. Getting honest is seeking the truth. What is the meaning of this life? That's a big question. I think that some people live their lives like they're in a movie. Denying things about themselves and how they feel and why, even to themselves. Rationalizing things that they know are wrong deep down inside; it's that little voice, that little angel on your shoulder, that's the Holy Spirit.

    So, when I decided to have faith in God, and that Jesus was His Son and our Saviour, I was not basing my decision on an assumption, but on the fact that every single time I examined my life, or the world I live in, or my pain, He had answer that made perfect sense to me. When I was ready to be honest. About my ego especially, and there's were the humbling effects of sin came in on my head. By assumption, do you mean that it's all written in a book, and there's no "footage" of the history, or because you weren't there? Do you mean because I haven't quite figured out all of the metaphorical stuff going on in Genesis? Because I can't really imagine in my head what omnipotent means? I'm not inclined to understand much about this life til I'm dead and gone. All I try to do is be a good person, just like you do. But God's Word definately helps explain some things. I just had to answer the question why? Why do I feel this pain? Why do I try to be good? Why is it hard sometimes? Do I even know what's right or wrong? Does anyone? Well if we do, then why do we all make so many mistakes and have so much pain then? That's what I mean by honest.

    You know, I wake up every morning, chug a cup of coffee, and head off to work too. And I try to be a good person too, and chances are that you are probably better at doing that than I am, but I really try hard, and I think that most people do. But I think that we're all confused about what is right and wrong, and you learn that all your life. If you're honest.


    ------------------
    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
     
  18. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    317
    Theres metaphorical stuff going on in Genesis? Where?

    The hebrew text does not say the earth was created in 6 days. The word used for day can also mean an unspecific length of time with no reference to a solar day. There is also unusual syntax in those verses that say something along the lines of 'and there was evening and morning...' which lend credibility to the biblical interpretation of long creation days. Genesis gives some of the best evidence that can be found pertaining to the supernatural origin of the bible. Just not a lot of people know about it because it requires a good knowledge of both science and the bible. Its hard to find people with both. The Genesis Question by Dr Hugh Ross is a very good book on this subject, probably the best. You can visit his website at reasons.org and look at some apologetics or read chapters from his books.

    If you have questions about something in the bible, if there appears to be a contradction, or some other problem just look at the greek and hebrew text.

    Vinnie

    Praise Jesus!!!
     
  19. 666 Registered Senior Member

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    378
    Lori,

    I going to try and not rant to much, but you struck a chord with me.

    What sin did I commit that caused my father to beat my head into a brick fireplace mantle and clean up the blood afterwards at 5??? I don't expect you to give an answer, but this sort of general statment can realy piss me off. I know I did nothing to cause it. Ok now after venting a little I can move on and see a litlle clearer. I know that you were most likely refering to the pain that people bring upon them selves.

    I agree with you about how a lot of people deny who they are and what they do. On the other hand I don't agree that the little voice (your conscience) is the holy spirit. I belive that as we grow through life we experiance things, good or bad, that form this conscience and is what tells us what is right and wrong. Why we some times chose not to listen to it? Well I don't feel there is one all encompasing answer and is more of an individual one. I am not trying to represent the fact that I do not deny parts of my self. This is another area ware I belive that we all do it to some degree or another, but I do not blame others for my actions. Due to my background and current social/political tendencies, I could have chosen to be an axe murderer and used my background as an excuse and gotten a lighter sentance or none at all. It is that conscience, the part of me that knows what it is like, that persueded me to take corrective action on my state of mind and not force some one eles to suffer an equal or greater pain. This also blends into personal integerty. I feel that historicaly science has giving me more answers to life than religon has.


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    My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 15, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 15, 1999).]
     
  20. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    666,

    Your father transferred his emotional pain onto you in a physical way... That poor, sick, twisted sinner! I'm really sorry you went through that and I thank God that you turned it into a positive force in your life!
     
  21. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    666,

    I wasn't talking about YOUR sin specifically!!!!!!! For crying out loud, do you honestly think that I'm insane enough to think that you somehow deserved that??????????? Just how crazy do you people think I am????? I'm astounded. Did you happen to think I may be referring to your father's sin, or whatever persons sins that effected him to cause him to act that way???? Or how about the sins of humanity and how it affects society in general? Come on, give me a break, please, I'm begging you...

    I'm also begging you just to really think about this for a while. Just give what I'm saying some thought, and really see if it doesn't make a little sense. I mean, you seem to be following the Word, you're just not attributing it to the Word, but to yourself. Don't you think it's more than coincedental though, that everytime someone is doing the right thing, that it happens to say to be that way in the Bible? Well, it does, and there came a point when I couldn't ignore that anymore.

    How about this. You give it some more thought, and try to envision my perspective. And if you end up giving your life to Christ, and becoming saved, then I'll send you that nudie picture of me? Deal?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    ------------------
    "ET phone home!"
    "Uh, hello Satan?"
    "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 16, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 16, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 16, 1999).]
     
  22. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,795
    Ilgwamh,

    quote:
    -Genesis gives some of the best evidence that can be found pertaining to the supernatural origin of the bible. Just not a lot of people know about it because it requires a good knowledge of both science and the bible. Its hard to find people with both. -

    According to Genesis 20-25, god made the fish and sea creatures and the birds of the air at the same time, before creating land based creatures.
    Well I'm sorry, but that is not the scientific view, we all know that birds evolved after the dinosaurs.
    This just goes to demonstrate, that Genesis was more than likely actually written by men, who used the (simple} logic of their day, ie, fish and birds are 'dumber' than land creatures and so they must have arrived first.

    And here's another mistake, in Genesis 11-13 it says that god created vegetation, plants with seeds and trees producing seed bearing fruit. This was on the third day before he created life in the sea. But we know that all organic life began in the sea and that seed bearing plants and fruit trees need insects to help them propagate.

    And here's yet another mistake, in Genesis 16-19 the bible says that god made the sun, the moon and the stars, this was on the fourth day. Kinda makes you wonder how all that vegetation grew without sunshine, never mind the insects!

    Where exactly does your science fit in?
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,374
    Truestory--

    Are you running out of gas here, or is there something more sinister in your posts?

    After all, as muddy as we've made this forum, you're relying more and more on trying to be cute. Wink-wink yourself. One of the major differences between how I regard myself and how you appear to regard yourself is that I know damn well when I'm being petty. It's actually one of the perks of leaving Christianity behind. Instead of turning the other cheek, I have the liberty to choose whether to stay and fight or just take it like a proper Christian.

    But it doesn't change the fact that we've arrived at this place because of the stupid distractions you seem to want to bandy about.

    But when I go back and look at the messier fights we've had, they are petty. And here's a few things I don't understand: You dislike my opinion of churches, but you choose not to attend them for some of the very same reasons I dislike them entirely. You can cite your efforts to save children from evil drugs, but refuse to comment on your methods, and eventually give me an answer that equals, "Well, not mentioning it is better than giving it to them." And now we come to this thread.

    So here's what it is, about drugs, sex, free speech, or any of those things you seem to object to: For your arguments to work, everyone accepting the argument has to agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior. This is simply not true. I see many non-Christians trying to reach into the mess of Christian identity and pick something of value out, only to be rebuked by paranoid, insistent, "Jesus-or-nothing" ideas.

    We got close once, arguing something about the idea of "God made man in his own image". We came very close to a consensus. If I recall we could not meet on the issue of why we had to make our acts a submission to Jesus. I believe I accused you of holding the name as more valuable than the principles, for that one. After all, it was Jesus' way or the highway.

    So you, as well as I, have a distaste for the organized churches. Whenever someone asks a question about the churches, you deflect the question by saying it has no credibility. Too many individuals, we--the questioners--don't know enough Christians. That sort of stuff.

    Get off it and make a stand for yourself, based on something other than what sounds like a very common party-line. Stop denying historical implications because you weren't alive then. You choose to identify yourself by the idea. Its history is important. Why are certain acts of the church body inappropriate? After all, someone thought they were doing the right thing at the time. But, no, you'd rather say it's not important because it's not you. These forums aren't necessarily about you. They have to do with what people see in the representative culture, and what they read in source material, and so forth. I love some of your opinions. The ones with which I don't agree often leave me chuckling. But the questions have to do with issues larger than your experience, or mine, or Ilgwamhs, or Searchers, or any of our own. Until you address the darker side of the history you've chosen, there is the possibility that you could participate in the same mistakes. And the whole time you'd think you were doing the Godly thing. See, the problem is that when we accept certain shortcuts in how we address what we consider reality, the shortcut applies in other ideas than the one we intended. Thus, if we cannot look to Christians to explain the conduct of their churches, something so basic as a behavioral admonition to students ("Remember, you're representing your school/town/state/country here") becomes an utter lie perpetuated for the convenience of the guardian. Christians have worked hard to make their faith an integral part of all of our lives. But too often they engage the menagerie of distractions because it's easier to feel like they're making progress. After all, what would be easier ... ending world hunger, or serving God by silencing music on the grounds that we don't like the harmonies, the rhythms, or the words. What would be easier? Cleaning up the graft that exists within a church, or blaming Satan for the church's troubles? What would be easier? Acknowledging the past and learning from HUMAN mistakes, or dismissing offensive behavior undertaken in the name of God and run the risk of committing the act again?

    Sorry, it's your show. Those of us outside the faith have not chosen the same constrictions for our lives. After all, the individuals could turn their churches out and renew their direct relationship with God. Or they could unify inside their churches and strenghten themselves through sectional solidarity. Or they could go on ignoring the problem while complaining about petty ideas. To act, ignore, or bargain ... these are the issues which challenge all of us.

    I have to go now ... Gee, I'd love to stop being petty. But I think the evangelical need for Christendom to exercise its moral will on the reset of us will force me to exercise my right to fight pusillanimy with pettiness.

    Oh ... that's right, I remember the bumper sticker. Christians have no need to consider the cumulative weight of the acts of their body social. After all, "Christians aren't perfect. They're just forgiven."

    Such a license to abuse humanity ... of course, it's up to you to use it for good or ill.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    "Religion isn't dead either. The AntiChrist will have access to computers, television, radio, and compact disc. If he walks among us already, the chances are that he has a walkman. I just hope it's not Christ himself, disillusioned after two thousand years in a cosmic sitting room full of magazines and cheeseplants, turned malignant and rotting in despair at the way his message has been perverted." (Robyn Hitchcock, 11/1987)
     

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