France Throws the Bums Out and Votes for a New Political Reality

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Michael, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    TIME: France Throws the Bums Out and Votes for a New Political Reality.

    To give we Americans an idea of how radical this is. It'd be akin to tossing out BOTH the democrats AND the republicans and voting for an ex-GoldmanSux Banker with NO political party at all and a French Nationalist. She's center-left in American politics - so of course, she's labeled 'far right' in the socialist paradise / EU. But make no mistake, she's a progressive lefty who wants plenty of labor union protection, protected markets, and a fat welfare state. Yeah, 'far right' neo-Nationalist according to the BBC twat I heard on the radio. GASP she's not even a globalist.... OMG, the sky is falling!


    Awsome

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  3. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Assholity marches on.
    Who needs the sky to fall? We'll blow up the whole shebang ourselves.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    So: an American Republican, a Romney? or Trump - except with an actual record of accomplishment in some field besides self-promotion.

    How like the French to value accomplishment in a technical arena over populist appeal. Romney had no chance. But to be fair, Romney was not running against George Wallace.
     
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    If you want to consider working for GoldmanSux an accomplishment, go ahead. But lets not forget they would have gone bankrupt if they hadn't owned so many US Politicians; included names like Cigar and Pizza; Twiddle Dumb and Nobel Oblahblah. Yeah, it's not really hard 'accomplishing' when your failures are paid for by three generations of functionally illiterate Tax Chattel.

    As for making billions in self-promotion, yeah, welcome to Progressive America. But, I digress, if you think you can do better, feel free to do so.
     
  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    In the meantime: Viva Marine Le Pen!

    Try not f*cking this up France

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  9. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Macron appears to be a pragmatic centrist, so the very antithesis of Trump or Le Pen, and not - having been a protege of Hollande - a "Republican" in any recognisable US or French sense that I can see. It is not clear to me how he will govern, given that he will need support from the Senate and the Assemblee Nationale, which are both comprised of members of the main political parties, neither of which Macron belongs to. But Macron (yet another Enarque, so not exactly mould-breaking in all senses) does appear to enjoy quite a wide range of support so it looks at least as if he will not be deliberately impeded.

    It will also be interesting to see what happens now to the main parties. The SP may fracture. Hamon was humiliated and Melenchon's vote was a testament to the remaining power of the crazy left in France (100% income tax: what is the point of that?). The LR (=Les Republicains, former UMP) may stay intact but clearly needs some major house cleaning and to throw out the old guard of slightly crooked leaders they have had up to now. Their alternative to Fillon was Juppé, who is in his 70s.
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And that doesn't look like an accomplishment to you?
    Try to describe a significant difference in governing policy between Macron and Romney, in the direction of the changes they favor, given the relative situation of the two countries. It's possible, but it takes a bit of work.
    Trump is not the antithesis of Romney. Trump was also - in his policies such as they could be extracted from his verbiage - the "centrist" (among the most "liberal" candidates) of the Republican primaries.
     
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I suppose you could say that, but then it is hard to determine what policies, if any, Trump actually has. Trump strikes me as the archetypal bullshitter. It is not that he is exactly a liar. He simply does not care whether what he says is true or not: when he speaks, what comes out is what it suits him to say at that particular moment. We can see that in the unabashed reversals on foreign policy of the last few weeks.

    Macron has not been very detailed on policy but there is every reason to suppose he more or less means what he says.

    I am hopeful that he will beat Le Pen and that that will help to stop the rot of populist nationalism in Europe. It comes too late for my own country, sadly. My son and I are "citizens of nowhere", according to our prime minister.

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  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    what is it with libertarains and their desire to choose the most racist and fascist politicians available to them
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Not really. Most of them are easily seen, simply because aside from being unusually and spectacularly vulgar his administration is Republican - conventional modern Republican, comfortably aligned with the Republican Party as established under Reagan.

    So tax cuts for the upper 10% give or take - for corporations, rich people, estate transfers, etc - are policy.
    Deregulation of corporations and high end financial dealings is policy.
    Defunding and staff reductions and capability reductions of government agencies that interfere with what plutocrats and their corporations want to do, is policy.
    Reductions - in funding, in staff, in scope, in capability - of any aspects of government that provide services for middle class or poorer people, is policy.
    Reductions - in funding, staff, scope, internal power, or external influence - of any agencies or branches of Government that provide information about political and economic matters to the general public, are policy (that would include the environment, public health, etc, of course, and the funding of research). (In this line, watch how these guys deal with the approach of the 2020 Census, for example).
    Expansion of the military/industrial complex is a certainty - both for protection of the global interests of the wealthy, and immediate financial gain.

    And so forth. Protecting and abetting large capitalist corporations and the capitalist corporate authoritarian elite, is the overriding agenda. Republican ideology since 1980.

    This is apparently easy to miss, for some reason. Even bizarrely so: There's a headline article in this month's Harpers - genuinely and honestly a lefty and liberal magazine, known for intelligent and informed writing - that asks whether Trump is a fascist or a plutocrat. Its reasoning is based on the assumption that Republican plutocrats and their minions in the Trump administration, as well as Trump himself, are libertarian and anti-corporatist and favor small government and oppose military involvements. Bang head here -> #
    In this respect he simply embodies, brazenly but otherwise unremarkably, the media operations of the Faction that captured the Republican Party in 1980. There's nothing new in that - exactly the same was true of media face of the W&Cheney administration, the Republican Congress under Clinton, even the media face of the Reagan administration when the power grab was still shaky, etc. Rush Limbaugh was talking like that in the 90s, so was Newton Leroy Gingrich, so were many others of lesser powers and roles, when they were consolidating the Republican voting base and the Congress we have now.

    Newt was on your TV yesterday, major media, reprising his role as major mouth - everything he said was bullshit, just as you describe, just as in the early 90s when he was the second most powerful man in the US Federal Government (Speaker of the House).

    Trump is not new, politically, and not the primary danger we face. Trump is spectacularly vulgar even while in the spotlight, and that is the extent of his novelty. Meanwhile, the serious threat in the US is from the Republican Party and its pet media acting in behalf of the famous Nameless Ones. Trump isn't even the Godfather of that Party - he didn't build it, he won't pay for it, he doesn't own it or run it. Getting rid of Trump completely would save us all kinds of trouble, even disaster, but it wouldn't take care of the problem we have with that Party.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Therefor the last person you'd vote for if you actually wanted serious change.

    Le Pen is a left leaning progressive in all aspects except her desire to limit massive immigration. By E. Asian standards she's your run of the mill centralist (China, Korea, Japan). Assuming Communist China is not FAR RIGHT (LOL) and assuming France is a Nation State, it seems reasonable to enforce a border the defines it, other than this, she supports a generous welfare state, protection of French industry (what's left of it), and reduced immigration - which will be GOOD for the people of France as they restructure their economy. Sure, pompous a-holes in the city may have to pay a bit more for a cup of coffee as the limited labor supply will drive the price up a little bit - big deal. Housing will be more affordable, placements in Univesity will be more plentiful, food, amenities, all of these will become slightly cheaper over time. And as an added bonus, fewer people will die in terrorist attacks (of which, France has them almost weekly).
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Her policy is to reduce immigration from Islamic countries, Islam is actually a religion, not a race. And get this, a reasonable number of Muslims agree with her. They left those crap hole countries, the las thing they want is to recapitulate the culture in France.

    Libertarians didn't support Trump, they ran a different candidate you may recall? That said, do you have good evidence Trump is racist? Wanting to enforce the border with Mexico is not racist, Mexican is a nationality, not a race.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    If Le Pen loses, I think her position will only rise as The Banker institutes a policy of rape and pillage, on whatever's left of the Nation State's French herd of tax chattel.
     
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks to France's run off it is looking like the centrist candidate is set to win, now if France's female trump wins, well there goes the EU.
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Yay

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  19. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    are you stupid? because seriously asking this
    kind of a necissity after asking this.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83

    quit being pedantic you know when people use the word racist generally they mean bigoted. your reliance on semantics and other pedantic arguments just goes to show you know your arguments are weak. wanting to enforce the border is not inherently racist wanting to do so because you think their all rapist, murderers, and drug dealers is. and sorry wanting to ban muslims for being muslims which she wants is inherently bigoted. i don't know why i bother trying to debate you never do anything in good faith and all you do is lie.
     
  20. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Ah OK, you are grinding your rightwing conspiracy axe again, I see.

    I'll leave you to it.

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  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The open, public, admitted, campaigned on, explicit, substantially enacted whenever possible, and forty years consistent Republican Party political agenda and political actions taken,

    the contents of Trump's latest budget proposals, and W&Cheney's before him, and Reagan's before them (those two got a lot of there stuff enacted, Trump's are still merely proposed),

    is a "rightwing conspiracy theory"?

    Seriously? And here I was just plagiarizing from the historical record.

    Well, it's a useful one - because while you are wondering about what the Trump administration's policies will be because you can't make sense of his speeches and Twitter improvs and conflicts of interest all over the planet, I just have to dig up outlines of Reagan's first term and Gingrich's Contract With America and and W's early budget proposals (even before 9/11) and change a few dates. Saves a lot of confusion, has never led me wrong.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Which is it? He's a Racist or he's a bigot? Or both?

    IMO a cherry picked HuffPo article with a measly 13 examples - not even good ones (across decades of public life), is not good evidence.
    Is Trump a racist? I don't believe so. But, maybe he is.

    Let say he is. Do you think that maybe that's a good reason to have a LIMTED form of Government? Well? Oh, but then who'd bail out the rich elitist bankers who destroyed our economy? Who'd give promises of free-shit that always ends up being crap (see: Government Schools, Government Roads, Government Welfare Ghettos, Government Regulated Lead-tainted city water, trillion dollar Government Wars, etc....).

    Alas, limited government is the very very last thing gimme-free-shit functional illiterate Americans want. A new poll found they want Government to fix more social problems.
    Ha!

    As for: and sorry wanting to ban muslims for being muslims which she wants is inherently bigoted.

    Do you have evidence of this? It seems she wants to limit the number of immigrants (which is sensible given they undercut the working poor and France has a high unemployment rate) as well as have a frank discussion about an ideology: Islam. An ideology that isn't entirely compatible with the secular values most French people hold. Seems reasonable to me.

    Not that it matters, this is France we're talking about. They'll elect the GoldmanSux banker and just have to get used to high unemployment and regular terrorist attacks. At least Peruvians will have the cheap labor to carry away their disposable coffee cups and clean their apartments in the city. What's left of it anyway. So, there's always that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Limiting immigration will not create more employment. To wit, immigration is not the cause of high unemployment in France. To put it bluntly, it is red tape and excessive regulations on things like hiring, firing, hours, pay rates, etc, that results in high unemployment in France.

    As a result, employers are unwilling to hire more staff.

    So unless Le Pen is willing or expected to reform their whole legislative system and implement reforms to remove the sheer volume of red tape, she won't be lowering unemployment rates. Previous Governments, both conservative and non-conservatives, attempted to implement labor reforms to stimulate the economy and businesses in France to have them hire more people, and they were all shot down and mass protests resulted, marches and strikes were the result of attempting to implement reforms.

    How do you think she will limit or reduce terrorism in France?

    Terrorism in France has come from French born people.

    If she or any Government wants to prevent future terrorism, it would require better access to education and employment, and most importantly, reducing racial and religious profiling and even more importantly than that, prison reform.

    All of the terrorists who have attacked France were French, ie, born in France. But most of them also spent time in prison for petty crimes. Most of them were indoctrinated and radicalised in prison itself. Over policing, religious profiling, lack of employment and education access, racial and religious discrimination, drive people to radicalisation and indoctrination. The general denial of rights and liberty in France, especially towards Muslims, will see an uptick in more and more people turning to radical religious ideology.

    Marine Le Pen's views and policies will only make things worse, not better.
     

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