Free Will vs Predestination

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by ilgwamh, Nov 21, 1999.

  1. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

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    317
    What does everyone think on this subject? A lot of people are opposed to predestination because they do not like the idea that they are not in charge of their own life. I will post my views later, but for now I will just say this. Free Will and Predestination need not be mutually exclusive.

    Vinnie

    Praise Jesus!!!

    ------------------
    Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Lately I've found myself using the idea of a computer program to describe life and evolution. People are, on one hand, comparable to lichen on a rock, algae in a pond ... I could come up with dumb comparisons all day there. If Earth is all there was to the universe, then yes, I see humanity's special place among life, the universe, and everything. But we can most likely proliferate to other rocks, other ponds, other planets.

    Thus, if the universe were a computer, capable of handling the bajillions of googols of zillions of factors necessary to describe the entirety of the universe we exist in, then the combinaiton of factors which create life as we know it must necessarily arise. Thus, everything we say, do, feel, &c., could possibly be predestined, but the factors of predestiny are so broadly defined compared to the scope of humanity that the potential paradox never comes into consideration. In other words, the events of our individual lives are necessarily determined, as a combination of factors; the program must execute these exact factors and instructions once. Variations on a theme, over and over. There is nothing in this universe that we are not. It's just the way the ratios played out. With the universe as it is, humanity, snails, LSD ... all of it must exist else the program is incomplete.

    Which is exactly why there will never, ever be another one of me exactly. Or you. Or you or you or you!

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    thx,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
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  5. 666 Registered Senior Member

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    Ilgwamh,

    I don't belive that our lives are subject to fate. Not becuase I don't like the fact that it implies I have no controll. If we had a predetermined fate it would be very clear as to what that fate is by simply looking at our current and past actions. Our own actions would tell us ware we are heading, when and how. Still we do not know the meaning of life. So this would suggest that our fate is not predetermined.

    ------------------
    The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
    seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
    -Max Born
     
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  7. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa,
    quote, "Lately I've found myself using the idea of a computer program to describe life and evolution. People are, on one hand, comparable to lichen on a rock, algae in a pond ...", unquote.
    That is really interesting, it's a shame you couldn't understand what I had to say on that subject in, 'The Truth Is Here', on my second posting. Are you sureyou couldn't understand it?
    Predestiny:
    If you take the assumption that the future exists and that indeed it has already occured, then it would be reasonable to assert that everything is predestined, simply because whatever was going to happen actually happened and nothing can change that. But for everything that did happen, there was exercise of freewill.
    The exercise and interaction of free will by every single molecule in the universe at every given moment, must by its very function predetermine its own future.You know,cause and effect, action and reaction, karma...oops!

    -IF I WAS ABLE TO MAKE MY OWN LUCK-
    -IT'S BECAUSE I HAD A LUCKY BREAK-
    C. Yeoryiou
     
  8. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    317
    Hi tiassa!

    "If Earth is all there was to the universe, then yes, I see humanity's special place among life, the universe, and everything."

    The anthropic principle seems to imply, in a spiritual sense, that Earth is in fact the center of the universe after all. Count your blessings that you are here and able to ponder such questions.

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    Hi 666! As you can probably guess I'm not too fond of your name

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    Actually, I bought something today and the total came out to $6.66. Thats probably the reason I didn't catch any fish.

    Anyways, you said, "So this would suggest that our fate is not predetermined." But I don't understand why you arrived at that conclusion from the 2 previous statements you made. Maybe I missed something, can you elaborate on that a little more. I'd appreciate it.

    I respect your opinion but I have to strongly disagree with one thing that you
    said. We do know the meaning of life. The Bible declaes, "All things were created for God's pleasure.

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    But this is a whole new discussion in itself.

    Hi tablariddim!
    I agree, in principle with some of the stuff you said but that assumption you suggested couldn't accurately be made in our universe.
    (quote)"If you take the assumption that the future exists and that indeed it has already occured,"

    In our 4 dimensional portion of the universe this seems to be impossible. We are limited to a half dimension of time. We are always in the present. But, if a being, like the God of the Bible, had extra dimensions of time he could know the future. Genesis 1 implies that God transcends space and time.

    In 5 minutes I will press either the a or b key on my keyboard. God, using extra dimensions of time, can view the future and tell me which one I will press. God knows the future. By my own free will I will choose to press the a key but God could tell me that in advance and I would have no way of changing that. He saw what my future choice would be. Tomorrow I may decide to sleep all day or go to school. God may view the future and say I will choose to go to school but a 747 will fall on my head killing me. I have no way to stop this. This is what my future is. I can't say, "Well, to save my life I'll just sleep all day." Because God saw the future and by my own free will I will choose to go to school. Thus, predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive. They can, and do occur at the same time.

    I'm not sure if I explained that well or not. Its kind of hard to put into words. If not, let me know, I'll try harder. New scientific finds and God's extradimensional capacity seem to resolve the arminian/calvinism debate that, sadly enough, has led to bloodshed throughout the years between different denominations.

    Vinnie

    Praise Jesus!!!

    ------------------
    Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
     
  9. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Hello Vinnie,

    My two cents... I agree that God has the extrademensional power of "foreknowledge," however, I do not believe that this equates to predestination...

    From the beginning it was God's Holy Will that each man be given sufficient graces to enable him to attain eternal salvation. But man was also given a free will, the power to accept or reject those graces - the stepladder to the Beatific Vision...

    Thus, through God's foreknowledge, He can know beforehand which men, through their own actions, will accept the graces and will finally achieve eternal happiness, and which will refuse them and be condemned.

    God can foresee our salvation or our damnation, not as an end that God has decreed, but as the result of our own behavior.

    I think maybe St. Augustine said it best...
    "As you, by your memory, do not cause past acts to be done, so God, by His foreknowledge, does not cause future acts to be done."



    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 21, 1999).]
     
  10. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    I would like to point out one of the more fascinating passages in the Old Testament regarding time, which is Ecclesiastes 1:9-11:

    9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

    10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

    11. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

    This certainly implies that time is but an illusion - all that is ever to be done has already been done, which would explain how a Supreme Being could already know the outcome. This isn't the same as predestination, though. I agree with Truestory and St. Augustine (thank you for that quote - it's a good one!) on that point.

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    www.indigenousrocks.com
     
  11. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Actually, Searcher, it is my understanding that these passages point out the VANITY of man, the purpose and value of human life and the timelessness of certainties... In Ecclesiates, one certainty is that, hard as we might try to understand it, life is an enigma beyond human ability to solve. Another certainty that is, always was and always will be is that the one who is stronger than man is God. This will never change.
     
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,614
    Tabby--

    Yes it's a shame. But I preferred less gibberish than I was reading at the time. I even went back and looked for the post but didn't find it. Okay, I admit--I didn't look very hard.

    --Tiassa


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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  13. Corp.Hudson Registered Senior Member

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    419
    eclaistasies (or however you spell it

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    ) is one mans thoughts on how pointless life is, and how men are so vain as to make life pointless. It does not mean everything has already occured. Just my thoughts
     
  14. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,478
    I don't believe events in our lives are predetermined. There would be no point to living if we couldn't choose our own path. Life deals you a set of circumstances. What you do with them is up to you. You work with what you have and succeed or fail by your own hand.
     
  15. 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Ilgwamh,

    Don't judge a book by it's cover. If I did I would say that the bible is very boring, but found it very interesting.

    It can be a little tricky, but I will try. By knowing the meaning, in this case the outcome, we would be able to clearly see the path in which we are headed. Yet we do not know the outcome nor can we see the path we are headed. I don't see it as pointless just unknown. I don't see how you can say we know the meaning of life. What you refer to was written in a book and we can not interview the authors of the book to determine if they were speaking truthfully or just talking out of ther asses. would this indicate that we are just God's toys?

    ------------------
    The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
    seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
    -Max Born
     
  16. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    Truestory,

    That just goes to show that if there are two possible interpretations of a passage or an event, people will almost always choose the more mundane of the two. I have no idea why that is - I always look for the magical and mysterious myself. And I generally find it.

    To illustrate my point, what do you know about the Great Chicago Fire that occurred the night of October 8, 1871? Do you know the supposed cause of that fire? Did you learn about it in grade school? Were you made to memorize, as I was, the story about Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocking over the lantern? Do you know that story is most likely a bunch of hogwash?

    Do you know there was an even greater fire that occurred that night in Peshtigo, Wisconsin? Do you know that about 900 more people lost their lives in that fire than in the Great Chicago Fire? Do you know that the two fires occurred at approximately the same time that night?

    Do you know there were other fires that started on the same night, at about the same time throughout the midwest? Do you know that there were witnesses who observed balls of fire that came from the sky on that night? What? You never heard any of these things? I guess you were so fascinated with the cow story (or should I say "bull" story?) that this monotonous bit of trivia was overlooked?

    Don't worry - you can count yourself among the majority. As I said, most people seem to prefer the mundane over the magical any day of the week, for reasons I will never comprehend. As a matter of fact, it is so important for them to have a mundane explanation for anything that happens, that they will go out of their way to create one if necessary, while shutting up anyone who tries to confuse them with facts.

    You may very well be right about what the Preacher intended in Ecclesiastes, but if that is the case - I'd rather read soup can labels.

    ------------------
    www.indigenousrocks.com
     
  17. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Sorry Searcher,

    I don't recall anything about ANY of those fires, including the one in Chicago.

    Your assumptions and conclusions about me are way off base and I'm not quite sure why you reacted the way you did to my post...

    Yes, your interpretation could be seen as magical or mysterious in some ways. However, the interpretation which I had learned about (it was not mine) and shared with you, although different from yours, I saw as having some magic and mystery of its own.

    I certainly hope you don't think that I was trying to shut you up??? That was the furthest thing from my mind, believe me. My intention was to share information and ideas.
     
  18. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    317
    Wow! Look at all the responses! I can feel the love in this place.

    Hi truestory. I think you may have misunderstood me. I didn't say our lives are predestined by God nor did I say God's foreknowledge causes future acts to be done. I said God can view my future. He knows in advance what I will choose to do with my free will. This is the confusing part, but God can view my future and tell me when I will die. Can I change this? No. Think about it. God viewed where my own choices, my own free will will lead me. This type of predestination may deviate slightly from the normal one but it is a form of predestination none the less. With that being said, I think God can influence our lives in the future while we are still in the present. A crowd attempted to sieze Jesus once but no one could lay a finger on him because his time had not yet come. God hardened the pharoah's heart. Here is a long list of scripture that suggests fate, free will, or both concepts in the same sentance.

    These were taken from "Beyond the Cosmos" written by Dr. Hugh Ross:
    Gen. 13:11 (F)
    Is. 46:10 (P)
    Rom. 11:25-12:2 (P&F)
    Ex. 9:16 (P)
    Is. 55:3 (F)
    1 Cor. 1:2 (P)
    Ex. 33:19 (P)
    Is. 55:6-11 (P&F)
    1 Cor. 1:26-29 (P)
    Ex. 34:24 (P)
    Is. 56:4 (F)
    1 Cor. 4:7 (P)
    Deut. 10:15 (P)
    Is. 61:10-62:2 (P)
    1 Cor. 6:19-20 (P&F)
    Deut. 30:19 (F)
    Is. 65:12 (F)
    2 Cor. 3:4-6 (P)
    Josh. 11:20 (P)
    Jer. 1:4-10 (P)
    2 Cor. 13:9 (P)
    Josh. 24;14-27 (F)
    Jer. 8:4-12 (F)
    Gal. 1:1 (P)
    Judg. 5:8 (F)
    Jer. 17:5-10 (P&F)
    Eph. 1:4-5 (P)
    Judg. 21:25 (F)
    Ezek. 18:1-32 (F)
    Eph. 1:11 (P)
    2 Sam. 12:7-14 (P)
    Dan. 4:4-37 (P)
    Eph. 2:10 (P)
    1 Kings 12:15 (P)
    Hos. 4:4-9 (F)
    Phil. 2:12-13 (P&F)
    2 Chr. 6:3-6 (P)
    Hos. 5:3-7 (P&F)
    2 Thes. 2:7-15 (P&F)
    Job 1:21-22 (P&F)
    Hos. 11:4 (P)
    2 Thes. 3:3 (P)
    Job 7:15 (F)
    Joel 2:32 (P&F)
    1 Tim. 6:19 (F)
    Job 9:1-35 (P&F)
    Matt. 10:22 (P&F)
    2 Tim. 1:9 (F)
    Job 23:10-16 (P&F)
    Matt. 10:28-30 (P)
    2 Tim. 1:12 (P&F)
    Job 34:4 (F)
    Matt. 11:25 (P)
    2 Tim. 2:19-26 (P&F)
    Job 36:21 (F)
    Matt. 21:21-22 (F)
    Tit. 1:1-3 (P)
    Job 38:36 (P&F)
    Matt. 24:24-25 (P)
    Tit. 2:11-14 (P)
    Psalm 14:1-3 (F)
    Matt. 24:36 (P)
    Heb. 3:4 (P)
    Psalm 25:12 (P&F)
    Mark 13:20-22 (P)
    Heb. 3:12-14 (F)
    Psalm 31:15 (P)
    Luke 8:10 (P)
    Heb. 4:11 (F)
    Psalm 32:5-11 (P&F)
    Luke 10:42 (F)
    Heb. 6:4-12 (F)
    Psalm 33:8-22 (P&F)
    Luke 12:4-5 (P)
    Heb. 6:17-19 (P&F)
    Psalm 58:3 (P)
    Luke 18:27 (P)
    Heb. 10:14 (P)
    Psalm 110:1-7 (P)
    Luke 22:21-22 (P&F)
    Heb. 10:35 (P&F)
    Psalm 115:3 (P)
    Luke 22:31-34 (P)
    Heb. 11:25 (F)
    Psalm 119:30 (F)
    John 6:44-65 (P&F)
    Heb. 13:21 (P)
    Psalm 119:89-91 (F)
    John 7:17 (F)
    James 1:13-25 (P&F)
    Psalm 119:173 (F)
    John 8:31-47 (P&F)
    James 4:7 (F)
    Prov. 1:29-30 (F)
    John 10:26-29 (P&F)
    James 4:13-17 (P)
    Prov. 8:10-19 (F)
    John 15:5 (P)
    1 Pet. 1:4-5 (P)
    Prov. 16:4 (P)
    John 15:16 (P)
    1 Pet. 1:15-16 (P&F)
    Prov. 16:9 (P&F)
    John 17:6 (P&F)
    1 Pet. 2:21 (F)
    Prov. 21:1 (P)
    Acts 2:21 (F)
    1 Pet. 5:5-10 (P&F)
    Prov. 21:3 (F)
    Acts 4:28 (P)
    2 Pet. 1:10 (P&F)
    Eccl. 3:10-17 (P&F)
    Acts 13:48 (P&F)
    1 John 2:5-6 (F)
    Eccl. 9:1 (P)
    Acts 17:24-28 (P&F)
    1 John 3:9 (P)
    Is. 1:29 (F)
    Rom. 4:11 (P)
    1 John 4:7-19 (P&F)
    Is. 7:15-16 (F)
    Rom. 8:19-33 (P)
    1 John 5:18-20 (P)
    Is. 40:20 (F)
    Rom. 9:10-26 (P)
    Jude 1-4 (P&F)
    Is. 40:23 (P)
    Rom. 10:12-18 (P&F)
    Rev. 13:8-10 (P)
    Is. 41:24 (P)
    Rom. 11:7-8 (P)
    Rev. 20:11-15 (F)
    Is. 43:20-21 (P)
    Rom. 11:20-23 (F)
    Rev. 22:11-17 (F)

    Hey 666, if I judged books by their covers I never would have read the Hobbit, my favorite fiction book. The cover on that is pretty cheesy.

    Isn't a cover part of the book? Yes, so the saying should go, "Don't judge a book by its cover only." Thus, you could also say, "Don't judge a book by reading a page or two." But what if the first page said in this book I will explain why 2+2 does not = 4? Am I entitled to judge it or should I waste my time and read it? Sorry, I just like to act stupid sometimes. I'm still an immature high schooler you know.

    On to more serious matters. For instance, the claim that the biblical authors talked out of the excretory opening at the lower end of their alimentary canal. I find this hard to believe. Your rear end can make loud obnoxious noises and even emanate foul odors, but it cannot talk. I have never witnessed this with my own eyes and some pretty strange stuff happens in my house so I should know. But, if I remember correcty, in that Pet Detective movie Ace Ventura talked from his rear end. However, you can call me skepical if you must, but I think there was a little ventriloquism going on there.

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    Sorry, I didn't mean that to make fun of you. I'm a sarcastic person and that was all in good humor. It does teach a good lesson though. I took your statment a little to literally. There was a girl in my class, a transfer student from germany, who didn't understand what the saying "I'm pooped" meant. It helps to know what the culture was like and what a lot of sayings in the Bible really mean.

    Seriously nowyou said
    "By knowing the meaning, in this case the outcome, we would be able to clearly see the path in which we are headed."

    So your talking about predestination as in the laws of physics I think. For instance, if we knew all the initial conditions of our universe and the laws that govern it we could determine all future events if we were predestined. Your not talking about predestination where a God predestined our lives right. Thats probably why I misunderstood you. But because of things like the heisenberg uncertainty principle and the fact that we don't know everything about the physical laws that govern us, we would be severely limited in predicting our future even if we are predestined. Yes we know our past conditions and the outcome that resulted from them but there seem to be way to many unknown factors to predict the future outcome of our lives.

    Hi oxygen! I agree with you that if life was solely predestined with no free choice it would be pretty meaningless. We would be a bunch of robots. Actually, we would probobly be just the same as animals, living on instincts alone

    Btw, A can of Cream of Chicken Soup has 5 grams of fat per serving...

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    Vinnie

    Praise Jesus!!!
     
  19. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Hello again, Vinnie...

    Sorry, I didn't see where you said that God can view the future. Maybe I missed it but, now that we're on the subject, I don't believe that is what is important.

    If one considers "foreknowledge" to be "predestination," then so be it. The important thing, I believe, is this:

    God has given us both a free will (control over our eternal life) and the knowledge of salvation through Jesus Christ. Therefore, in a way, God has shared some extrademensional "foreknowledge" with us... That is, "we can know" our eternal destiny by either accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ as our savior... do you agree?



    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 21, 1999).]
     
  20. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    229
    ilgwamh -
    Greetings. Very little can conclusively be stated on this subject.. its very nature is almost contradictory. Personally I tend against the belief in predestination. Why? Well, to me it seems like an awful waste.. to have some being or power making me do something, and then also making me believe that I was the one that chose to do it seems rather illogical. It would be like playing chess against yourself, playing to lose on one side and win on the other. What would be the point? Now this doesn't neccesarily mean that it doesn't happen, but I don't see any evidence for it. (although theoretically, I wouldn't be able to)

    However, this all depends on what a person defines as predestination. From the instant the universe was created, there was time, and hence, a future. That future is by definition, this future. If a person suddenly gained the power to observe the future, whatever they observed HAD to happen, not because the future said so, but because they did it, and in doing so defined the future. So, all of this had to happen, but because we made it so.

    So perhaps I am saying that we are all victims of predestination at the hands of our own free will.

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    FyreStar
     
  21. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    Vinnie - not everyone is concerned with fat, you know? For those of us on the Atkins diet, it's the carbohydrates we worry about! As I see it, there's at least 2 sides to every issue, and I prefer the side which seems more interesting or satisfying or mysterious. I've been told that's not a very sensible way to approach life. Well, I guess that when I die, they won't be talking about how sensible I was, will they?

    Truestory - it's very difficult for me to explain where I'm coming from on this, but I'll give it a try. There is probably very little in the Bible that I take in the same light as preachers who teach us the "true" meaning of the scriptures in church every Sunday. They completely overlook the most exciting information contained in the Bible, and dwell instead on the most boring and inconsequential passages they can find.

    If you do bring up something that is potentially very interesting - they seem to put a great deal of energy into finding the most mundane explanations possible for everything. This has killed any desire I might possibly have ever had to go to church and learn more. There is no magic or mystery in a preacher's soul. He is dead where he stands behind the pulpit, and he offers me nothing but death.

    I have nothing against you, Truestory. It's just that I hate it when people regurgitate what they've heard coming from some preacher's mouth instead of reading the Bible with new eyes, and trying to see what I see there - or better yet, try seeing something entirely different and new for themselves.

    By the way - you never heard of the Great Chicago Fire? Were you born and raised in the United States? Just wondering, because I was certain that every school child in the U.S. had been taught the story of Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocking over the lantern which caused a good portion of Chicago to burn to the ground in the late 1800's. But then, I was also taught that the Christian missionaries were so kind and wonderful to the Natives in this country. Being part Native American, I learned more from my grandmother, who had no more than an 8th grade education, some of the things that really happened. Incidentally, all of my schooling took place in west coast states (California and Washington), in case you were wondering.

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  22. truestory Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Well Searcher,

    I can understand your bias... Although I don't share your belief that all preachers are dead, this was not an interpretation heard from a preacher since I do not belong to any organized religion or attend any organized church. Nor do I believe that all Bible translations are mundane unless they come from the imagination of Searcher or any other non-Biblical scholar.

    To the contrary, I find the relationship between man and God, the manifestation of God and the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible far from mundane (ordinary/earthly).

    When reading or studying various books of the Bible, it might be a good idea to review the historical intent of the various authors. It helps when attempting to interpret the meaning of a given book as a whole.

    For example, you might want to consider that The Book of Ecclesiastes (the title given to this book is the Greek translation of the Hebrew name Qoheleth, "one who convokes an assembly") is a treatise, more or less logically developed, on the vanity of all things. This book is concerned with the purpose and value of human life. While admitting the existence of a divine plan, it considers such a plan to be hidden from man, who seeks happiness without ever finding it here below.

    While Ecclesiastes concedes that there is an advantage for man in the enjoyment of certain legitimate pleasures so as to prevent man from lapsing into pessimism and despair, Ecclesiastes considers this indulgence to be vane UNLESS man returns due thanks to the Creator who has given him all. Under this aspect, earthly (mundane) wisdom would rise to the higher level of true spiritual wisdom (somewhat mysterious). This true wisdom is not found in our ordinarily earthly (mundane) existence but is perceived only by the light of faith (mysterious), inasmuch as it rests with God, who is the final Judge of the good and the bad, and whose reign endures forever.

    Now, if you want to consider the recorded historical intent of the author to be "regurgitation," and prefer to make stuff up in your head then, of course, that is one way to add more excitement to your life...

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    Not that it matters but I went to elementary school on the east coast. To the best of my recollection, that Chicago fire or the others were never discussed (I could have been absent that day!). Is that where the song, "The Day Chicago Died" came from?

    Perhaps we have very different backgrounds when it comes to the Bible, too? Perhaps you are turned off because you have heard much of it before, presented by some of your un-favorite characters? I have not had the displeasure of that experience.

    Bible study is "relatively" new for me. When I used to just pick out passages without understanding the background, many books seemed quite boring and tedious to read (I still shy away from the geneology). The more I study the actaul history and background of various books of the Bible, however, the more interesting and meaningful they become and the more able I become at understanding the various messages.


    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 22, 1999).]
     
  23. SkyeBlue Registered Senior Member

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    I was educated in Calif. and haven't ever been taught about the Chicago Fire. I have heard reference of it elsewhere, but never in school. Odd, huh? Just in case anyone is interested, this links to a page that talks about what people saw during the fire. I know, I'm off topic as usual.

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    http://www.hamradio-online.com/1996/nov/telecom.html
     

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