Free Will vs Predestination

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by ilgwamh, Nov 21, 1999.

  1. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,795
    Tiassa,
    -How about this? We say, life, death, time, feeding, digestion, reproducing, excreting .... I offer you the universe as a single process. Where we segregate human processes as myriad and unique, they are all but facets of the same process. Anything that makes us different, say, from a quasar is mere perception.-
    I don't consider your elaborating on my theme as nitpicking, it's cool.
    Corp Hudson,
    so far we have taken a mere glimpse of a tiny portion of the universe and nobody can say exactly what's going on.
    We see and note all of the wonders, we read the big theorists and we are led to speculate.
    Scientists use maths and brainpower. Philosophers listen to the scientists and then use intuition and brainpower. When a layperson, is using relative terms to describe a very large picture that nobody has ever seen as a whole, one shouldn't take every individual word literally and dwell on it, but rather try to comprehend the gist of the sum, of what the individual words are trying to suggest.
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Corp. Hudson ....

    I was searching for an old file I have that has some ramblings of mine on the universe. I remember that it started with "We are the eyes and the ears of the universe ...."

    At the time I was getting at the idea that intelligent life was a recording device for the universe ... its collective memory, as such. But that's irrelevant. The universe doesn't eat. Eating is part of the universe. It doesn't excrete. Excretion is part of the universe. It needs not reproduce, for reproduction already takes place within it.

    Okay ... food in, digest, excrete ... mechanically, what's much different between flatulence and a volcano? What's different between the energy release in digestion and the burning of fuel in a star? In high school I saw a chemical formula for human blood ... it was huge. But it got me thinking about the body as chemistry instead of mere biology, and then physics beyond that. Nothing that our biology does requires any different terms than a physicist would use to describe various, common processes in the universe.

    Sorry, I think I'm off on a tangent.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

    ------------------
    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
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  5. 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Tiassa,

    I think there are some basic problems with how people think of the universe. A lot of the time people belive that the universe was created then humans were put into it, When in fact we are part of it. It's all elctrons,protons, etc just in different propotions. One other thought, in order to see a verry large picture one must step back far enough from it that he can see it. The only problem being that in order to "see" the universe we must be able step out of it in order to get to the big picture.

    ------------------
    The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
    seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
    -Max Born


    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 01, 1999).]
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,614
    666--

    It would seem that I cannot object.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

    ------------------
    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  8. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,795
    Tiassa,
    I will refrain from bodily functions and comparisons.Instead, I will suggest that the universe is vibrating.
    The universe and hence everything it contains,is vibrating like a gong.If you took a photo' of a gong, ringing, from its rimside, with a slow apperture, you would see multiple gongs and the rimsize expanded.
    In the centre of the photo, the rimsize would appear to be normal but on either side of it, there would be hundreds of less solid looking rims, expanding outwards from the centre one.If you took a picture of the same gong ringing with a fast apperture time, you would only see the single rim, at its normal size and seemingly still.
    The universe may be doing the same. In our case, we (humans) are so small in comparison to it to it, that we are not aware of the vibration. If you can stand far enough away and imagine our world and our galaxy vibrating like this gong, you would be able to see the multiple worlds (maybe after a few beers or something). They are virtual clones of this world, but each one (and there could be trillions) is slightly different than the next. In the same way that a gong would bend and distend in subtle ways as it vibrates, so too the universe.
    If it could be proven that this idea is feasible or likely, wouldn't it go someway to explain things like invisible dimensions, psychic phenomena, prophecies, de ja vu etc etc?
    Any physics guys out there who want to respond to this? I could do with a good slap!
     
  9. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    229
    tab -
    Well.. let me ask you something.. do you have any sort of background in physics/mathematics, beyond the high school/early required college level? I notice you are making several quite fascinating conclusions, but do they have any base to them? If you have a theory based on some observation (not a conclusion) and supported by mathematics, it is worthy of further examination, but if you are simply trying "wouldn't it be cool if" scenarios, what is the point? Believing something because it sounds neat isn't physics, or even science. I don't intend to come off as hostile when I say this. Can you further illuminate what you were saying?


    FyreStar
     
  10. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,795
    No Fyrestar,
    I'm afraid I have no grounding in science or physics, but I have been fascinated and intrigued about the origins our universe and the concept of god since I was a young teen, I am now 47, so my various theories are just the culminations of around 35 years worth of thoughts and philosophising, this is why I wrote,'Any physics guys out there who want to respond to this? I could do with a good slap!'
    I simply don't know how feasible the idea could be, so I really would appreciate some knowledgeable feedback.
    But my gut feeling is that the answers to all the questions we are able to pose about
    life, god, the universe and everything, are not only staring us in the face through nature and space but are also hidden within us, waiting to be searched out. I don't have to be a scientist to have an interesting theory, as long as it's not absolutely baseless. Let the scientists into the fray and lets see what marks I get on the 'absolute tosser' scale!
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,614
    Tablariddim--

    I think you're correct with your analogy to the gong ... there's a link in the Astronomy News section that describes almost exactly what you're talking about--they've just figured out how to see, essentially, the vibrations of cosmic background radiation. Once they're all in agreement about what they're looking at, the scientists intend to start postulating the geometry of the universe. That will tell us what the gong looks like.

    At least I think it's describing your idea.

    But the first thing that came to me when I read your post centers around the bit about humans not being aware of the vibration. Could it possibly be that, as we were created amid this constant vibration, we interpret stasis to reflect it? In other words, we would only notice if the vibration were to cease. (Were that the case, can you imagine the fields of human study? Perhaps all the "crazy" people are just a little out of sync with the universal harmony, and thus perceive it constantly. "My God! The pulsing, the buzzing!")

    Sorry, off on a tangent.

    As to the idea of trillions of virtual clones of this world ... I think that if the conditions you describe were to be true, it would be correctly said that there were an infinite number of virtual clones of this world.

    Let me know if I'm not making sense ....

    thanx,
    Tiassa

    ------------------
    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  12. 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Tab,

    The was once a group of people who belived the things you were talking about. I belive that yes you are on to something Just a little to literal. The are a group of scientist that are trying to study gravitational waves. The problem being is what does gravitational vibrate through? The universe, this also goes into what Tiassa was talking about. If we can detedct thses waves we would have a better intrument to measue and view the universe.

    ------------------
    The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
    seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
    -Max Born
     

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