Freedom of Speech and Maturity

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wellwisher, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Every right-winger I've dealt with always demanded the right to oppress those opposite in whatever means possible in the guise of freedom.

    Ironically their hard line, dogmatic but hidden belief that they should dominate those unlike them is expressed as their right. They feel comfortable with this stance because its not equal opportunity as they represent. They know birds of a feather flock together (especially them) so they aren't going to be a major target by their own, especially when there are plenty of other victims. Basically they are more hierarchal than egalitarian.
     
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  3. tali89 Registered Senior Member

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    I am rubber, you are glue, etc etc. If someone is secure in themselves, an obnoxious comment from some idiot on the street shouldn't rattle them.

    As for being a victim of hate speech, I'm pretty sure I've had some pretty nasty insults thrown at me by strangers, although I don't exactly remember what they were. Then again, I've worked in retail for years, so that sort of thing is just water off a duck's back.
     
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  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    No..being offended by hate speech has nothing to do with one's insecurity. It has to do with respecting yourself enough not to take that shit from anyone. That's just the way it is.

    You don't even know what hatespeech is do you? You would remember it if someone shouted it at you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
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  7. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    You've been conditioned to believe such things. Well partially conditioned, partially willing to be a victim because its the easy way out.

    The gay man I referenced was not a moron who embraced hate slurs, he was there during the beginning of the social experiment which he did not agree with. His input was just as valuable as those pushing to remove the word faggot from every day use. Now you may not agree with his opinion, but that is a matter of taste. As a teen, I was required to see it from his point of view, something you would like BANNED. Up until that discussion, I hadnt given it a thought, meaning, it was Fine by Me to exclude the word Faggot if it hurt someones feelings. I had bought into the social experiment. It never occurred to me that SOME gay men didnt like being called GAY and preferred FAGGOT.

    Supporting hate speech? How so? I related a true story from someone who had a vested interest in the social experiment. Someone who didnt like what his own community was trying to change. Someone who LIKED the word faggot vs gay vs homosexual. Let me guess, it never occurred to you that someone thought being called gay was too girlie.

    Will you feel better with the boots kicking you in the face while they are screaming HOMOSEXUAL, or is the reality, It Doesnt Matter what the guy in the boots is screaming when your ribs are breaking?
     
  8. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Like I said, citing some moron who likes being called faggot has no bearing on the fact that it is still hatespeech of a highly offensive level. Did you ask him if he relished the moment of being called fag by a complete stranger? I doubt that he would. That's the scenario I mentioned.

    Let's see. Would I like being called "homosexual" while someone is beating me up? lol! Uh no. What does that have to do with "fag" being hatespeech? Are you claiming now that it is my fault for finding being called "fag" offensive?
     
  9. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    See, there is your conditioning. You can only parrot what you've been taught to say.

    So being called a homosexual while being beaten is different than being called a fag while being beaten? Or is the reality, its not the words, its the action that defines the crime?
     
  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Being called a homosexual while being beaten up would be the same as being called a fag because it is being used as an expression of extreme hatred and malice against me. The shouting of the words IS an action, and one that spurs treating me as a subhuman who deserves to be beat up. That's why the FBI's determination of a hatecrime often involves whether hatespeech was involved during the commission of it. Because that speech symptomizes the hate motivating the crime.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  11. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    But thats a personal preference; which descriptive word is used to describe someones sexuality. It is not clearly or solely an expression of extreme hatred and malice against you. You have been conditioned to believe that, to your own detriment, might I add.

    Yes, the shouting of words is an action. But we have agreed that it doesnt matter whether the person is using the politically correct version or the socially unacceptable version of the word that means the same thing.

    No it doesnt. Names do not inspire the action, the action is undertaken by the individual; an individual who has already decided someone deserves to be beaten for their sexuality (for this example).
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  12. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    A word can be uttered in hate, indicated by it's tone and context, or it can be uttered as just a value neutral term. Someone shouting "homosexual" at me while kicking my ribs in is uttering it in hate, as a depersonalizing stereotype without an human rights.

    Yes it does. By continuously designating me as an "it"--a fag--it spurs his own treatment of me as a non-person who deserves to be beat up. That's the power of hatespeech on those who use it.
     
  13. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry for the missing start quote in my previous post.

    Its not the words that inspired the treatment. You can be an 'it' while being called gay in that persons mind, we have already agreed that it doesnt matter whether the 'it' is designated by fag or homosexual. And honestly, I dont understand how you can take comfort in realizing the goal of never hearing the word fag again, while still being a homosexual. The issue isnt fag vs gay is it? And that is the weak underbelly of the debate; do you really think something has been achieved by excluding one word?

    Ask Black Lives Matter about how many of them heard the N word while people were being shot in the back.
     
  14. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Wrong. Calling someone a fag or a nigger depersonalizes them to the extent that they can be treated as less than human. That's why hatespeech is used. If it didn't have this effect, people wouldn't use it.

    You can't understand why not being called a "fag" gives me "comfort"? lol! I guess you'd have to actually be on the receiving end of that hate slur to understand why it is so offensive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  15. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    How can anyone be "truly secure" in an environment that's allowed - even encouraged - to bully, ridicule and deride him?
    It's pretty damn easy for a big, rich, famous white guy to shrug off an insult.
    And it's altogether too easy to tell a poor, small brown girl to "man up" when she's called some of the names I've heard from privileged .... Well, being Canadian, I don't use the appropriate word.

    Yes, we do have our hate-mongers. Sadly, we even have holocaust deniers, white supremacists - at one time the KKK did some recruiting in the prairies - and rabid republicans. To them, freedom of speech means their right to shout down anyone who disagrees with them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  16. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Excellent point. The ideal world that is being posited is one where everyone is equally raised to be
    confident and treated as equal human beings. The REAL world is nothing like that. Hence the use of hatespeech taps into a long history of minorities being belittled and abused for simply being who they are. It picks at an old wound that has long been carried in their lives. The exemplary self-confidence of big rich white guys like Arnold not withstanding.
     
  17. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    We can forgive those who have wronged us - but we can never forgive those we have wronged.
     
  18. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    The person using these terms has already come to the conclusion you are less than human.

    You have No Idea what receiving end I have been on with anything in my life.

    I think you are easily placated, hence, you think something remarkable will be achieved by no one ever saying the word fag again. I thought you would pick up that with the last line I wrote:

    Ask Black Lives Matter about how many of them heard the N word while people were being shot in the back.

    But then again, one cannot expect much from a parrot. Parrots dont create new words do they? They can only do what they are taught.
     
  19. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    And reinforces it by calling you a fag or nigger.

    So because cops allegedly never utter the word nigger while shooting black people in the back must mean uttering the word nigger isn't so bad? It's just black people's insecurity that such hatespeech upsets them? lol! Wow...
     
  20. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps. Or perhaps he's been hearing it and taking for granted that it's okay to repeat, without ever having given any thought to its meaning, effect or consequences. Once it's brought to their attention, many people do reflect and change their habits.
    And even if the person saying it is beyond reach, the younger people hearing it - or recent immigrants, or the undecided or indifferent audience - is reinforced, every single time, in their callous disregard of other people. The mentally ill, the intellectually challenged, the physically ill-favoured, the old, people with speech impediments, the women, the injured veterans, the differently pigmented, the children whose mothers dress them funny... Where does meanness stop? We're trying to push that tiny envelope of compassion out beyond your skin to include other people. More people.


    Mirror, mirror....
     
  21. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, exactly:



    While I havent any use for rap music itself, it is doing more to diffuse the negative effects of the word. Rap/hip hop/pop movies are changing the meaning, not censorship.
     
  22. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Because the word has been placed beyond the pale for whites, black people were able to take possession of it. Otherwise, none of the rap etc. effect would be possible.
    The horse came first; then the cart.
     
  23. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Says you.
     

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