Freedom of Speech and Maturity

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wellwisher, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Sez me.
    I was here a long time before hurtful speech was a public issue. I've watched the changes take place. There was a marked improvement in public discourse, advertising, the depiction of stereotypes in popular entertainment, the accommodation of disabled persons, discrimination, harassment and scapegoating in work-places.
    Then came the backlash, and I'm seeing a speedy deterioration in all those areas, an increase in violence against women and minorities.
    Because bigots insist on their "rights", and there are political factions that thrive on bigotry, we're sinking into incivility and social strife.
    This will not end well.
     
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  3. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Wrong. The negative effects of the word nigger are greater than ever these days. That's why you call it the "N word." Did you even notice that? They don't even say that word on the news anymore. Why is that if the negative effects of it are being diffused now? Your side is losing the culture war. Sensitivity to others is now a cultural more, especially among our young people.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
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  5. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Lol, are you complaining because I DIDNT use the word?? And doesnt that support my point, its not the word that makes the racist/homophobe?

    Does it really matter if Donald Trump uses the politically correct term Muslim or the loaded word towelhead? Has anyone really benefited from Trumps 'sensitivity'? See, thats how ridiculous the argument is.

    I used N word to indicate I was discussing the issue on its merits, rather than just tossing it out there to provoke response. Unlike my use of Faggot, which was relaying a real life situation and a part of the story.
     
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  7. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Milkweed, I don't understand your angle or your stake.
    What is it you would like to happen? What is it you hope to accomplish? Why do you think our feelings ought to be hurt and that we ought to feel threatened? Why do you want public discourse to continue growing coarser and meaner? Who benefits?
     
  8. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    I'm pointing out that in spite of your insane thesis that saying nigger isn't offensive anymore, you still don't even use it yourself. Why don't you practice what you preach? Why don't you
    start calling black people niggers in fact? God forbid they should be so insecure that they'd be offended by you calling them that. lol!

    It matters immensely to Muslims. You don't think Muslims are offended by hate speech slurs? Then go to a Muslim community and start calling them towelheads. Then explain to the police how you unfairly got your ass kicked for using that term. I'm sure they could use a good laugh.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  9. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    lol.. you just dont get it do you? What is the Difference between Trump saying Muslims shouldnt be allowed into america vs IF Trump had said Towelheads shouldnt be allowed into america?

    Explain to me WHAT is the Difference? What exactly have you won with your 'sensitivity' censorship? Are Muslim feelings Less Hurt because he *lol* respectfully used Muslim instead? What is the DIFFERENCE between someone saying "I dont hire niggers because they are lazy*" vs "I dont hire African Americans because they are lazy*. WHAT is the Difference?
     
  10. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    One adds insult to injury. Are you able to tell which is which? Extra points if you can explain why...
     
  11. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    I wanted MR to answer this.

    Did you watch the video (its actually 2 parts)? Apparently nigger can be a term of brotherhood. So its not clearly an insult.

    And I already posted the debate within the homosexual community regarding fag. So clearly it wasnt an insult to every homosexual man.
     
  12. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Bill Burr

     
  13. tali89 Registered Senior Member

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    Both statements are just as bigoted, it's just that one of them is more sanitized. I believe the point Milkweed is trying to make is that even if you sanitize a bigoted statement by removing the apparent slurs, it still remains a bigoted statement. That people are objecting to this simple observation is rather remarkable.
     
  14. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    An interesting read, though somewhat disjointed in the beginning.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/
     
  15. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    LOL! One uses a hate slur to express a prejudicial sentiment, and the other doesn't. You seriously can't see a difference? Then why don't you try calling black people "niggers"? I'm sure they could educate you quickly in the difference.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  16. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Ohhh... Now I see where you are coming from!

    You dont see that labeling a group as LAZY is the REAL problem! Gawd, you have been sooo fucking brainwashed. You ignorant little child. Thats how they get you off the REAL FUCKING ISSUE.

    You're using the wrong sized glass. The word nigger isnt the problem. It doesnt matter if they have brainwashed black people with the same method. If they can deflect the anger towards a meaningless word, they dont have to do anything about the real issue.

    MR, I do owe you a bit of thanks for making me understand why you dont understand sticks and stones vs names will never hurt me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    24,132
    The words are a problem. The attitudes that accompany the words are a problem.

    It is easy for people who have never been labeled with such words to say that it can be easily shaken off. And sure, they are just words. But when you look at the attitude and belief system that accompany those words and the history behind such labels, then it doesn't become so easy. And people who are not from groups that are discriminated against are coming at this from a privileged position where such words, labels and attitudes cannot affect them. For example, they cannot understand how such labels affect one's life, from being discriminated against, to threats of violence because of the prevailing attitudes that accompany those words.

    People from privileged positions who simply make fun of or ignore such terms and expect that they be ignored seem incapable of understanding that being disparaged and harassed is not acceptable.

    Because this is what those words do. They harass and bully and demean others. Someone screaming out a derogatory term to another person because they came out of a gay bar not only harasses that person, but it seeks to humiliate them in public, to label them and to draw unwanted attention to them. And yes, it can lead the victim of such an attack to harm. And we all know that often times, such labels are used as justification to harm gay men, and some have even died as a result of such abuse.

    The excuse that some mention, that people of the same group say these words to each other ignore a vitally important thing. People of the same group who use such terms among themselves do so on equal footing, where the use of the word will not cause harm. For example, two black men referring to themselves as the N-word are doing so on equal footing. Why? Shared experiences. A white person calling a black man the N-word does not say it from the same position. It immediately takes it back to the historical use of the word, where it was used to abuse and demean another and where one was in a position of control over the other.

    While some argue that the word itself is not the problem, and one should only focus on the attitude behind them, they also forget that the attitude and the use of the word becomes intertwined. Most importantly, they completely ignore the history of the word and its usage in the past.

    In short, the word would not exist were it not for the attitude.
     
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  18. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    It is because totalitarian, Orwellian Newspeak is becoming stronger, so that if you use it, you have to expect punishment.

    I'm happy to hear, in the video, that the youth ignores this and uses the N-word. It means, newspeak is not yet that powerful.

    In fact, the meaning of words changes all the time, and if a word is invective or positive is what changes often very fast. Take a look at this forum, and you can easily find out that "my friend" is becoming more and more invective. Another actual example is that "partner" becomes an invective in Russian language - completely spontaneous, but with the political background that Putin and other Russian politicians refrain from using invectives against NATO and US politicians and continue to name them "partners". Some time one could observe an increasing ironical use with "partners" used in quotes, but now I have seen already several clearly derogative uses of "partner" without any quotes.

    This happens in a quite natural way. There are general rules of polite behavior, which forbid to use invectives. But there is also the natural wish to use them. The natural reaction is that one replaces the invective itself by another word, which does not have such a negative meaning. But there is also a context of this use, and this context remains aggressive, even without the invective itself. So, given that people are able to feel this context, they see the word without negative meaning used as a replacement or euphemism for the invective. This is copied, and the former normal word becomes an invective. And this is essentially unavoidable. because it is the elite, the upper class, which is bound to polite behavior much more than the lower classes, which uses this new, negative meaning first, but it is also the upper class which sets the trends. While the lower class continues to name an idiot idiot, the upper class starts to name him intellectually challenged, and then the lower class follows the new trend.

    This may be not universal, sometimes it is the lower class which starts to use a word in a derogative meaning, while the upper class continues to use it in a positive way. At least this is what I observe with the German word "Opfer", victim, which became a typical lower class immigrant slang invective in Germany already about 1995, but still remains used positively by the politically correct upper class.

    The reverse change, from negative to positive, also happens, but seems more difficult. The typical way is that an invective starts to be used in small circles as an indication of close friendship - I can name you a .... because we are good friends, and you know that I don't want to insult you but use it as a joke. Another way is "the society names us ..., but so what, we f.... the society, and use this word for ourself, because there is nothing wrong with being a ....". The first way will remain restricted to small groups. I have to be part of the group, else I'm not allowed to use the word. This seems to be part of the use of the n-word among black youth. The second way can lead to acceptance by the whole society - but only if combined with acceptance of the whole formerly despised group by the whole society. This is what happened with the German "schwul" for gay, and AFAIU also for "gay" and "queer".

    Whatever, there are many ways how the meaning of a word changes, and all they prevent Orwellian Newspeak, because they all prevent the totalitarian control of the language, which works only if the meaning of the words is fixed, and if one can control it by forbidding bad words.
     
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  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well here is the thing, in the US you can say whatever you want as long as you don't threaten or physically harm others. But by the same token, people are also allowed to judge you by the words you use. So if you want to use offensive words, fine. But don't be surprised or offended when you find people judge you by your words. If you walk around spewing racially offensive words, people just might conclude you are a racist. It really isn't that complicated.
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    I would only urge you to remember that you're dealing with a rape advocate; something about levels of intellectual, psychological, and emotional maturity go here, especially since Milkweed can only properly pitch the tantrum if she's tilting her own windmill↗.

    But, yeah, remember that, please, because his thread is quite stained by such spattering irony.

    Remember that some are so intellectually, psychologically, and emotionally immature as to need a faggot or nigger or bitch to abuse.

    Think of it this way: She's not actually paying attention. Her reward is you being distressed enough to give her the time of day.
     
  21. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Not only do you argue incoherently, but you don't even seem to have anything to argue for. I asked you repeatedly if using hate slurs is ok why you don't use them. You repeatedly ignore that and rant on about how some moron you knew a long time ago enjoyed being called a faggot. About how some black people use the term nigger endearingly. Now you start calling me names and bitch about how brainwashed I am. What IS your point here? Is Tiassa right that you just thrive on attention?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Do YOU use the word nigger and faggot? Why would you want to use such offensive hate slurs? Just to rebel against Big Brother? You really would go around offending people just to prove you are free from Big Brother?
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    The three statements above although referring to slightly different issues, certainly have hit the nail on the head. I agree with the sentiments entirely.
     

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