Freemarket Capitalism: SpaceX rocket launch – and landing

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Michael, Dec 24, 2015.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    The Guardian: 'Welcome back, baby': Elon Musk celebrates SpaceX rocket launch – and landing
    Elon Musk had to sit in front of Congress and pretty much BEG THEM to allow him to proceed with his research which would compete against the State's favored crony's: Lockheed Martin and Boeing. You know, because THEY know best. This is the sad state of our hyper-regulated craphole of an "economy" that 100+ years of Progressive Socialism brought us. It no longer takes free people freely competing to bring us goods and services. No, now it all comes down to obtaining permission from douche CONgressional hacks in the pockets of big players, many of whom still think the Earth is 6000 years old!

    Lockheed Martin and Boeing have had decades to develop this type of tech, they didn't. And we've been paying Russia to put out stuff into space for over a decade. Cronyism is the American Way, and its the exact same reason our Government monopolized School System looks like it was plucked from 1915, not 2015. Hell, schools were in many ways much better in 1915! Watch as the monopolists fight against Charter Schools, which will, one way or another, out compete them into oblivion - only to start the cycle over again as the rent-seekers scurry into Charter Schools to infest them with as much Regulatory Capture as possible, as they have Public Schools. But, I digress.

    So, thank the Gods CONgress gave Elon it's blessing (this time).

    Private ownership, free-market capitalism, and innovation at it's finest, History In The Making:
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2015
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Uh, the Charter Schools in the US are mostly government run and government paid Public Schools. This is what, the third time somebody has pointed this out to you?

    Also, Lockheed and Boeing are private capitalistic corporations. The Russian space program is entirely government run. So are the Russian schools. So are those other school systems you like better - government Public Schools, the lot of them.

    And Elon Musk has - in keeping with the long tradition of capitalistic enterprise - started from a base of technology and research and infrastructure provided by the US government at little or no cost to himself. Without the US government's seventy years of research and development in various fields, he'd be flying around in a propellor plane with manual controls.
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    The end goal is private free-market education. In this way, the poor might actually have a chance at a decent education. Much like the poor can afford a decent smart phone. That said, given the predilection Americans have for Government-run monopolies (Government monopoly, rent seeking, and regulatory capture is a given, it's the default position) it's no wonder many Government School Teachers will think to offer 'new' types of Government schools.

    Given the sad base state of modern America, this is where many will have to start. But, make no mistake, the end goal is to eliminate Government from pedagogy altogether.
    No they're not. They're heavily subsidized by the Government Crony corporations. Which is why someone like Elon Musk (an actual free-market capitalist) was required to develop, fund, and bring this awesome advancement to fruition.

    So is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's oil production, what's your point?


    Firstly, this isn't true. I am friends with someone who started a private school and ran it for 20 years before deciding on seeking a Charter to become a Chartered School. The last I knew, it came down to implimenting asinine standardized testing, which meant teaching to the test, which defeated the whole point. So, she was still private. Her students were generally 3 grades ahead of the local Government Schools and she only charged $2500 a year per student.

    One of the problems is most Americans want 'FREE'.
    This is the 'Americans Way'. It's one of the reasons I like spending a good deal of time in Japan. As a generalization Japanese people think you should pay for what you consume and that it's not fair (or nice) to take it from someone else without paying for it. They also view the customer as 'A God' and serve them as such.

    As such, Americans don't want to pay for the resources for a really good education - why do that when you can buy a new vacation, or a car, or etc.... and anyway, School should be FREE.

    It should be noted, in socialistic Australia, Private Schools run around $25,000 a year. But, it's worth the price because the rich kids gain instant access into the heavily Regulatory Captured (via limited licences) markets. It's a virtual cycle that's been ongoing for generations. Right up until Chinese started displacing 'White' Australians. It's not unheard of to hear talk of limiting the Asification of the programs by race-based limits on entry. You know, for the Good of the Roads. Because, in the mind of the average Citizen: Me me me me me me and free. You'll hear the same bullshit in the USA.

    And guess what? Much of our Space Program was derived from Nazi Germany. Now, apply your same logic. A lot of medical discoveries we rely on today were made experimenting on victims in their camps. Again, apply your logic. The USA didn't pop into existence out of the void, all that was imported to the Americas (technology, resources, money, etc...) came from the European Aristocracies. Now, apply your same logic.

    For a Slave born on a cotton plantation everything they had, from their food, to their clothing, to their home, was 'provided for' by their owner, their Master. Apply your logic to that Slave. What? The Slave 'owes' his Master something in your mind?

    Let's see: And the recently born Slave has - in keeping with the long tradition of Slavery - started from a base of technology and research and infrastructure provided by his Owner, at little or no cost to himself.

    Don't worry, your way of thinking is now the norm. And, for most of history has been the norm. Which is why we'll simply have to wait for your entire generation to die off. That's the way forward. In the meantime, we'll continue to work on pedagogical reforms and support free market initiatives that break State monopolies like Air B&B, Uber, Chartered Schools etc..... And, given the pathetic state of the competition (with it's functional illiteracy rate of 1 in 5 graduating 'high' school seniors) it won't be that hard. Lucky for you, the processes of education itself will take about 30-40 years. So, you needn't worry too much about Change You Can Believe In happening in your lifetime. Just a lot more of the same.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Your friend does not run a school system - just one school. The school systems you regard as superior, world wide, are government run Public Schools. And Charter Schools in the US are government Public Schools. Fact.

    So this bs is the last of it: " pedagogical reforms and support free market initiatives that break State monopolies like Air B&B, Uber, Chartered Schools". This is false. You are never again going to post a claim that charter schools in the US are not government public schools - right?
    Ok: It was not provided to us at little or no cost, we already had a rocketry and space program without it, the US did most of the work involved in the actual program itself after acquiring Nazi tech and expertise, and the debt is acknowledged. None of that is true of your attempted celebration of this latest advance by Elon et al.
    Ok: It isn't true - the contributions, while notable, were minor. We had full scale and well advanced medical research in the US already, and have ever since. Elon'ds space launch can make neither claim.
    The initial Western civilizations's infrastructures established in the Americas were in fact - like Elon's launch - derivative and minor advances on European establishments. American civilization is largely built on that base, and is normally classified as a Western civilization along with the European ones. Of course, native and geographically separate innovations, alterations, and advances, for hundreds of years now, have been so enormously significant as to justify a reclassification - the local contribution is no longer minor. Perhaps Elon's as yet minor and derivative advances will accumulate enough to earn similar characterization in decades to come.
    By what bizarre malfunction of the libertarian brain does slavery operate at little or no cost to a slave?
  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Her Private School is a Montessori school. IF she decided to get a Charter, and become a Charter School, then she would have been forced to set a bunch of asinine State assessments neither her, her students or the parents who pay for their tuition want. And why would they? They want their kids to learn. And given most are 2-3 grades ahead of the local Government schools (many start AP online course around 15) and a large majority go on to University, or start their own businesses, why waste time sitting these ridiculous assessment items? And, in order to consistently do well on these tests, you have to teach to the test. You have to train children to take tests.

    Now, you're going to tell me one day she's private and then next, if she happened to agree to become a Charter School, she's no different from any old Government School? Give me a break. Many of the Government Schools fight tooth and nail to prevent private schools from getting chartered. What next? Stanford and Harvard are public Universities?
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    See above.
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    You seem to live under the delusion that without the State, we wouldn't have the technology we have today. Well, to some degree I agree, we'd have MUCH BETTER technology compared with today. As exemplified by this revolutionary achievement made possible by semi-free market competition and the entrepreneurial spirit of an individual capitalist.

    You claim that Elon relied on Government science. So? And our Government relied on Nazi technology for its space program. But guess what? Without Nazi's, we'd still have a space program. And without Government, we'd have an even better one.

    Here's a list of SOME of the many inventions that occurred BEFORE the government started funding science.

    - electricity
    - airplane
    - telephone
    - movies
    - assembly line / automobiles for the masses
    - automatic transmission
    - Tesla coil
    - roller bearings
    - remote control
    - mercury-vapor lamp
    - nickel-zinc battery
    - AC electric motor
    - disposable razor
    - air conditioning
    - DC electric motor
    - fax machine,
    - solar cell
    - peristaltic pump
    - thermostat
    - skyscraper
    - pharmaceutical tablets
    - photographic film
    - carbon microphone
    - jet water turbine
    - electromagnetic induction
    - electric fan
    - vacuum cleaner
    - socket wrench
    - quadruplex telegraph
    - synthesizer
    - ticker tape
    - refrigerated boxcar
    - printing telegraph
    - pneumatic hammer
    - dishwasher
    - inverted microscope
    - toilet paper
    - electric stove
    - escalators
    - compression refrigeration
    - the milling machine
    - the lathe
    - multiple coil electromagnets
    - sewing machine (lock-stitch)
    - combine harvester,
    - solar compass is a railroad compass
    - circuit breaker
    - vulcanization rubber
    - inhalational anaesthetic
    - grain elevators
    - rotary printing press

    The Government appropriates technology, it does a shit job at actually developing it. Which is why it generally picks a few market participants and then sets about buying them off. It warps and distorts all aspects of science and technology. It wastes through literally trillions of dollars. I've personally seen hundreds of millions squandered on nothing. I've seen as Government regulation moves in and makes things worse, much worse. Which is why today, the #2 reason you will die, will be due to Government Regulated Healthcare.

    A recent study showed that since the Pentagon started awarding contracts - that these have actually caused our already crap manufacturing to be even worse! Why? Because there's no need to innovate when Big Government is there to hand you a fat billion to buy next to useless tech. In one care, the company was worse off than at the start of the war! Most of the managers had taken their bonuses and left, all the truly innovative people left, and those that run the company were clueless as to how shit their company actually was. This ONLY happens when government monopolies step in as king maker and turn private companies into rent-seekers.

    Which is why Government Schools are so shit.
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Yours, given it was your reasoning only applied to a different noun, the reasoning is still the same. And is yours.
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    This is the point, you cannot imagine the world that could have been. No one can. Imagine if in the future, this event is recognized as the start of human space colonization. When humans left this rock and colonized mars and then other planets, other solar systems. Now, imagine some Christian troglobite sitting in CONgress and in the pocket of Boeing denyed Musk this opportunity. And instead we lived on for a hundred years never going into space past the moon. There will be your great grandson crapping on about how wonderful Giver-mint is. Thank the Gods for Giver-mint. Without Giver-mint we'd all live in caves and go clothesless.

    Well, that's this world, the one we live in.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Anyway, this is a wonderful example of what happens when even a tiny bit of free-market (freedom) capitalism is freed up. It's free people working together that always has, and always will, bring prosperity to the most people, lifting the poor up with everyone else. Unlike generational welfare ghettos created and maintained by the State.
  14. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    Did anyone try to prevent SpaceX from performing its R&D? My understanding is that Musk was trying to persuade the defense department to include SpaceX in competition for contracts to launch high value military payloads like spy satellites. So in a way, you could argue that he wanted his own place at the government feeding trough.

    They are experienced aerospace contractors which a proven record of building reliable space boosters. So the are a lot lower risk suppliers of space launch services than trusting high value payloads to an (at the time) unknown start-up.

    Please stop ranting.
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    I think you're expecting too much of Michael. Facts and reason are a big stretch for Michael.
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    As they are for many extreme nuts that frequent forums such as this, both politically and scientifically.
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    For now, yes. This is a consequence of the massive Government we have and it's ability to steal/tax one group of people and give to another group. In this case, taxing all of us, to pay for Crony contracts to Boeing and Lockhead Martin. In the United States of Cronyism, this is the only peaceful means currently available. Think of it this way, in the past the only way to deal with cronyism and corruption was through bloody revolutions. So, one could say this is a step forward. Leading by example.

    SpaceX Wins Permission To Launch Government Satellites
    Last year, Musk sued the Air Force for the opportunity to compete with the United Launch Alliance (ULA) to send Pentagon satellites into space. The ULA, which is a joint project between Boeing and Lockheed Martin, has had a virtually exclusive monopoly on US military satellite launches.
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    At one time in history, the thought of overthrowing the King of England was politically 'Extreme' and 'Nuts'. At one time in history, the idea of allowing Asians to migrate and live in White Australia was politically 'Extreme'. The idea the Earth was round was 'Nuts'. As for my position of not wanting to use Government's legal right to initiate violence against Citizens and non-Citizens alike, it's based on the Kantian standard for moral behavior. Which is to say, it's immoral to initiate violence against innocent people. While this simple proposition may seem 'EXTREME' and 'NUTS' to you, I promise, it's not. It's a perfectly acceptable position to take. But, you needn't worry. The State has started a new 100 years War, so for the rest of your life you can enjoy watching your tax money's being diverted away from providing resources needed to make new discoveries in science and instead be wasted on the Giver-ments Crony favorites.
  19. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    I have a question. Why don't they just add a parachute (s) to the first stage and extra fuel so that once it releases the payload they could aim the first stage back to earth and when it gets back into the atmosphere open the parachute(s) to let it float back to Earth?
  20. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    I'm a small-government/individual-liberty Republican and I'm inclined to agree with your basic philosophy. Unfortunately, you aren't arguing for it very well.

    In this case, I think that your example was badly chosen and doesn't illustrate what you think it does.

    You lost me there. "Cronyism"? "Corruption"? "United States of Cronyism"? "Bloody revolutions"? What is the "only peaceful means" of what? You sound like one of this board's leftists when you write like that, apparently believing that exaggeration, anger, caricature and insults can take the place of objectivity, dispassion, rationality and sanity.

    Right, that's what I said in my earlier post. The government wasn't forbidding SpaceX from conducting its research, as you claimed in your first post. They were materially and financially assisting SpaceX. The first Falcon 1 orbital launch was conducted on a US military range in the Pacific. NASA had given them an early stage R&D contract to develop orbital launchers. They have since won NASA's orbital supply contract and anticipate flying astronauts in 2017. (They could do it now with their Dragon capsule, but are holding back to comply with NASA's very risk-averse requirements.) This latest adventure was conducted from, and back to Cape Canaveral, a government facility. SpaceX has always had the government's fingerprints all over it.

    While it's true that Musk has vision that Washington lacks and can run a far leaner and more innovative operation than contemporary government bureaucracies can (he reminds me of the 1960's Mercury-Gemini-Apollo NASA), I applaud the government for recognizing the value of entrepeneurship in this area and for promoting the private space industry and helping it develop. I think that's a good thing.

    The controversy you mentioned arose because SpaceX wanted the opportunity to bid for the task of launching certain military payloads that the military considered very high-value, such as custom-built spy satellites. At the time the military was giving those contracts to ULA. Despite your screeches, that wasn't "cronyism". It had sound justification, namely the fact that Boeing and Lockheed-Martin have been building satellite boosters for decades and their boosters had accumulated an enviable record of reliability. (I don't believe that any of their current generation of Atlas boosters has ever failed.) At the time SpaceX was a new space-industry start-up with a very thin record of accomplishment. So the Air Force didn't want to run the risk of possibly losing a one-of-a-kind satellite that would be very difficult to duplicate.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Uh, dude - I wasn't reasoning about a noun. And it was your post, freely typed by you, that presented us with slavery maintained at little or no cost to the slaves.
    The charter schools are government public schools. Memorize it, get comfortable with it, it's part of that amazing thing people call "real life".

    I can, however, describe accurately the world that is. In that world, the one we live in, various governments - US, Soviet, Japanese, German, French - did the heavy lifting, and brought us to the point that a small and resource poor private corporation can piggy back on all that R&D and launch a private business launching satellites etc.

    And more power to 'em. But nobody was thinking realistically about private space rockets until quite recently.

    Have I mentioned before how uncanny your inability to post a simple historical fact and get it straight is?

    The government of the US has been funding science since the first year of its existence. The French, British, and German governments earlier than that. And lead us not into the topic of patents.

    No, you aren't. There is no such thing, in the modern Republican Party. You can be an ex-Republican and be that.
  22. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    and lets not forget that i believe it was atrisotle had some of his research backed by the Athenian state and columbus was backed by the spanish crown and not mention norse exploration journeys were pushed for by the norse kings. hmmm its almost as if government has been involved in science funding since the very begining
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Okay, but so does our toilet paper. Everything from the (arranged) flower seller to whom you're legally allowed to marry has the Government's fingers all over it.

    Last year, Musk sued the Air Force for the opportunity to compete with the United Launch Alliance (ULA) to send Pentagon satellites into space. The ULA, which is a joint project between Boeing and Lockheed Martin, has had a virtually exclusive monopoly on US military satellite launches.

    Imagine trying to compete against corporations with pockets as deep as the Government? It's not like there's an endless supply of people wanting to put satellites into orbit. In order to develop a business, you need business. For example, iPhone6 is much better than iPhone1 (the original iPhone didn't even have apps). Imagine if Apple had to compete with Sony and Samsung whereby they, and only they, had the Crony advantage of selling billions of crap phones to the Government making humongous billions in profit which can be reinvested into R&D. Boeing is if not the largest, then close to it, recipient of 10s of billions directly from the US Government.

    That is not fair. That is not free-market capitalism. That's cronyism. Not only does it deny other companies from making a profit in the market, but it ALSO allows Boeing to out-compete and take the best engineers, physicists, and other aerospace scientists, reducing their supply and driving up operational costs for anyone who might want to compete.

    How do we end this? Well, in the past we had a Revolution. Specifically, the American Revolution. In the present, we wait. We wait until the Cronyism is so rotten, it takes down the whole industry, and possibly most of the economy with it (see Too Big To Fail banks, auto, etc...). In this case, it had gotten so bad that the US Government was paying Russia to put satellites into space. As a matter of fact, that was one of Musk's arguments on why he should have a go.

    Are we going to have a revolution? No. And I wouldn't want that. Instead we'll all just normalize to a lower standard of living than otherwise could have otherwise been achievable. Sort of like the middle ages relative to the Graeco-Roman period that preceded it. It's not like people stopped advancing, it's just a little difficult to think clearly when your superstition tells you to think irrationally.

    Musk explained on Friday he isn't suggesting the federal government should grant the launches to SpaceX rather than ULA, but that SpaceX and other domestic companies should be allowed to compete. He believes this competition would potentially save the government $1 billion.

    Musk says SpaceX is not only capable of launching military satellites (they already have a $1.6 billion cargo-resupply agreement with NASA) but that they would be able to do it more cheaply than ULA. According to a statement from SpaceX, each launch by ULA costs taxpayers four times as much — around $400 million per launch — as a launch by SpaceX would.

    Musk also noted that the Lockheed-Boeing alliance uses Russian engines for its Atlas V rockets.

    "In light of international events, this seems like the wrong time to send hundreds of millions of dollars to the Kremlin," Musk said in the official complaint.

    And despite the billions in 'aid' given to these two crony-capitalistic corporations, they were using Russian made engines. THAT is the level of incompetence we're dealing with here. I'd rather a free-market where, IF Russian companies produce good engines, THEN they may be awarded a contract by a private firm. If it's Boeing, then it's Boeing. If it's Musk, then it's Musk. But, it's private corporations competing with other private corporations for space contracts.

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