Fun Distraction: Alien Encounter Scenario!

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by Dufoe, Jul 26, 2013.

  1. Boris2 Valued Senior Member

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    that isn't a very good way of arguing. better it you say why points are either wrong or irrelevant. the only one i can see as being able to argue against is the primate body plan. octopuses are pretty darn intelligent. just need a non-aquatic version.

    which is what i was saying.
     
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  3. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    If we stayed in sea would we have made the spaceships we have now, to travel to other worlds anew?

    Apes between the canyon walls hidden in pressurized cubicles of Mars

    Dolphins under the ice in the oceans of Europa

    Elephants on Ceres

    Crows in the clouds of Venus

    Octopus under the thick ice in the oceans of Enceladus
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Most, if not all the points are diluted when one considers the points I have raised in regards to size, extent and numbers involved.....
    Plus of course limited interpretations [as is the Drake equation] being based on life "as we know it"


    The whole was a quote from WIKI.......I go along with the main part of the quote which you have not enclosed......
    ' The Drake equation is a probabilistic argument used to estimate the number of active, communicative extraterrestrial civilizations in the Milky Way galaxy. The equation was written in 1961 by Frank Drake not for purposes of quantifying the number of civilizations,[1] but intended as a way to stimulate scientific dialogue at the world's first SETI meeting, in Green Bank, West Virginia. The equation summarizes the main factors which scientists must contemplate when considering the question of other radio-communicative life"


    On the paragraph you did chose to enclose, yes I am very cynical of the cynicism expressed. But then again, most models, and speculative thoughts on the Universe/Cosmos will have some cynicism.

    The Drake equation is a guide...limited as such, but a guide never the less.

    If the very high probability of ETL, both superior and inferior to us were shown not to exist in any way shape or form, anywhere, anytime, it would raise far more questions then the logical more probable alternative of life other then us being present.
    And our Creationist religious friends would have a field day.
     
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  7. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    This is what I wish an alien encounter was really like. A space-craft about the size of the Pentagon (5 stories high), uses gravity field generators to hover over the desert in Arizona. It has radiant lights like in the movie Close Encounters. It's hyper-drive technology allows it to sever its connection to the space-time continuum, and manipulate the hyper-space-time of a coexisting hyper-space that existed prior to the big bang. The aliens don't want to get too close to population centers, so as not to alarm anyone, but sit there in the middle of the desert until humans find the craft and decide to visit it. In my fantasy, the aliens are diplomats from a technologically and spiritually advanced collection of worlds (New Agey and/or like Star Trek). They have technical and metaphysical capabilities that are beyond our space-time/quantum mechanics limitations. They are friendly. They want to establish a hyper-drive manufacturing facility on our planet earth in return for all the riches we can give them (like billions of dollars worth of minted gold coins, art, gems, and other valuables).
     
  8. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    This is what an alien encounter would really be like. A space-craft about the size of Russian Red Square, the first nation in space, uses mass reducing field with some warp field propulsion as it hovers over the White House. Demonstrating with its brilliant laser beams and making cheese out of White House, they state their nature is that of bringing peace and tranquility and getting Earth rid of aggressors who cause chaos and wars. The aliens don't want to get too close to Democrats and Republicans as those are all the same breed, but instead however over individual soon to be politician babies. Using their time travel technology with future understanding of human populace governance, they help the future babies-to-be-in-government to sway away from Obama like campaigns, but to approach the world with a more Putin-like ideology of tranquility and truth. They are friendly. They want to establish an independendent United Nations governing party center, which is not based in New York city of USA but in space station, so as to make unbiased and unswayed decisions in a cause of humanity for humanity benefit. In return they ask only one thing, love.
     
  9. Boris2 Valued Senior Member

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    can't prove a negative and if the universe is infinite then we will never know conclusively either way. so saying that the universe is a big place therefore life must exist is an argument that goes nowhere.personally i'd be happy to limit the discussion to just this galaxy.
     
  10. eram Sciengineer Valued Senior Member

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    If someone discovers primitive alien life forms on another planet, will he win some sort of prize? Just wondering...
     
  11. Boris2 Valued Senior Member

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    don't think there's any prize. can't see a nobel being awarded but then ...it's gone to some strange things over its life. you'd get a lot of kudos though.
     
  12. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    If aliens could alter the physics constants around them, e.g. a field generator that raises the speed of light to 100 times c, they might be able to visit other planets such as ours. We don't know why the physics are what they are and we don't know what mechanisms enforce the physics constants. Perhaps some day we might.
     
  13. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Faith isn't a scientific term regardless how you view it.
     
  14. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    This universe is infinite in extent. That's different from infinite. If the universe was infinite it wouldn't have a beginning. Life does exist and there's an argument supporting the existence of life. On this planet. For sure there is life in this galaxy. So now you can tell me to 'lighten up' again right before you clarify what you meant.
     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    The laws of physics and GR would be the same throughout the whole Universe...I don't believe we have any reason to think differently.
    But the laws of physics and GR encompass and allow far more then human kind has discovered or are capable of manipulating.
    But yes, certainly any sufficiently advanced Alien civilisation could in all likelyhood have control and ability to warp and curve space/time to that desired end.......

    The existence of any type 1, 2, 3 or 4 civilsations, on the The Kardashev scale, should see such civilisations controlling energies encompassing whole galaxies which would give us that edge to shape space/time as we wished.

    Given time, I believe all that is allowed by the laws of physics and GR should eventually happen....given time.
     
  16. river

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  17. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Boris2: Thanx for pointing out that PaddoBoy dismisses cogent arguments with no analysis/discussion of why they do not support an opinion.
    Intelligence is only one prerequisite for the capability of developing a technological culture. Other prerequisites include: An appendage capable of using an available object as a tool & an environment presenting a need for the use of a tool. A stick for reaching otherwise unreachable objects or a stone for perhaps breaking open a nut (or a coconut after peeling off the husk). The primate body plan & environment meet the above prerequisites. An octopus is extremely well suited to its environment. It can move in 3 dimensions; Tentacle suckers are capable of reaching almost all potential food sources & opening prey such as abalone. There is little (if any) environmental pressure for tool usage.

    PaddoBoy: I have seen claims for the existence of Boltzman Brains coming into existence by chance due to the possibilities inherent in a perhaps infinite universe & perhaps an infinite amount of time. I consider it a silly claim.

    Your dismissal of my arguments for the rarity of technological cultures by invoking the possibilities due to the enormous number of galaxies & solar systems seems just as silly without some supporting analysis & cogent arguments undermining my analysis.

    Analysis of the history of the earth provides the best starting point for estimating the number of technological cultures in a galaxy. My previous post discusses such an analysis.

    The Drake equation is merely a method for organizing guesses. Without the type of analysis I mentioned, its conclusions are nearly worthless. For example: I have never seen a Drake equation analysis which had a term relating to the habitable zone of a galaxy.
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    As I said my dismissal of your arguments stem from the sheer near infinite size and numbers involved which in my opinion dilute and completely vanquish those arguments.
    And I would venture to say that most cosmologists/Astrophysicists/Astrobiologists/Astronomers would agree with me.
    Of course the mainstream scientific answer is "We don't know" but as with other common sense assumptions in Cosmology, the affirmative answer is far more likely then the negative.



    Science consists of many organised, logical guesses based on overwhelming probabilty.
    If anything, it [The Drake equation] probably understates the chances of ETL elswhere due to the constraints of "life as we know it" while at the same time keeping the debate within the realms of reasonable possibility and avoid going to ridiculious extremes.
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It's worth noting Dinosaur that the summing of your concepts/points even if factual, could still see literally thousands of civilisations just within the observable Universe....even if we go to extremes with say 1% of all galaxies having IL, and 1% of that lot having more then one species, we would still be left with a considerable number.
    Or are you really saying that we are alone?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  20. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    Altering physics constants is an ability reserved for the gods, or advanced alien civilizations. And if humanity achieves this capability, then we will be looked upon as gods by lesser races. Other than some of the strange UFO sightings, like the one that shut down the nuclear missile silos, there are unfortunately no advanced aliens interventions that are verified by science.
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not talking or suggesting changing any physical constants...I'm suggesting a future sufficiently advanced civilisation, will achieve all that is allowed by the laws of physics and GR.
     
  22. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    I think we're there. Global positioning system is pretty much utilizing GR and E&M theory. That's pretty much it for applications of GR.
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think so......warping and curving and/or manipulating space/time to achieve a FTL perception ala Star Trek.........wormholes etc.
     

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