Genetic Memory

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by The God, Mar 12, 2017.

  1. The God Valued Senior Member

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  3. timojin Valued Senior Member

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  5. The God Valued Senior Member

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    Basically this running away from or ridiculing "what we do not understand" is quite un-science like. The tendency of people to declare such things as pseudoscience shows disturbing trend of thoughtlessness.
     
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  7. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    I think you do not give enough credit for peoples ability to detect woo

    My personal woo detection unit began to flash red lights and I am sure it emitted a guffaw though it is only set on beep

    However I did check out various books in my library and followed up some relevant articles

    From my understanding of the post in this thread there are two main sections

    One is woo - bunkum - Cowpat - no credibility - no research papers that I can find

    The other is real - partly understand - subject to treatment as required - has and is subject to continuing investigation in order to understand the brain

    Unfortunately some people are under the impression there is a link between the two

    There is not

    No link

    No comparison

    Cowpat and science do not make a palatable thread

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  8. The God Valued Senior Member

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    Woo detection ability? I like it.

    But think of it....ignorance or lack of faculty to think beyond mundane may also be mistaken as woo detection ability.
     
  9. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    That has not been my experience

    Those who populate forums like this (I would exempt many of those who state something is and no evidence required) are here to discuss various explanations of observed phenomenon of the universe

    The section which looses me is Black Holes

    Particularly the mathmatics

    I'm much more at home with the human body and associated disaplines

    I would send you plans to build your own woo detection unit but it's above TOP SECRET

    I obtained the plans when I was dusting the UFO under Parliament in Canberra

    That was during my years as a RAAF Radio Technician

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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  10. The God Valued Senior Member

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    Genetic memory is about human body and associated discipline only, why do you call the genetic transmission of acquired memory as woo?

    I think the correct stand could be...we don't you as yet...but it appears do-able.
     
  11. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Speculating on that which hasn't been shown to be impossible is science fiction, not science.
     
  12. The God Valued Senior Member

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    Pl define science too.
     
  13. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Because it is woo

    It is as doable as me tying a towel around my neck and flying to the Moon

    I did tie a towel around my neck and would have been happy to fly around the bedroom

    why do you call the genetic transmission of acquired memory as woo?

    I think the correct stand could be...we don't you as yet...but it appears do-able.


    I stand by my assertion - woo - correct stand - never can be - not yet or ever - no one has investigated it's doablity (<<<< that's a big clue)

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  14. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    No.
     
  15. The God Valued Senior Member

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    Ok, thats your opinion.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    This and That

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    Click to dream.

    It is nearly a nihilistic question, but there is a metaphysical affirmative. And it can point in a vaguely scientific direction, but that's the thing, I'm still just illustrating with speculation.

    But the general idea is that chaos constrained will reflect the constraints and rules thereof; essentially, yes, we can conceive of something like this, so it is in some context "possible", but that is about as useful, then, as an obvious comparison: So is faster than light travel "possible". And so is the Hand of God, even literally, though ... I still wonder about MacDuff, and the idea that one can enter but not necessarily exit paradox—to wit, was the question of the davenport ever actually resolved? Practical specualtion suggests he must be overlooking a factor, or measuring something wrongly, but it is at least not proven impossible that the result is correct, and there is no way for the davenport to have gotten there in the first place.

    So, sure. It's possible. We're quite a few generations away from that, as near as I can tell. I don't think we've developed the genes to facilitate the full data transfer.

    To the other, though, it is known that some mammals, at least, do pass on defense and survival information, though what is confirmed is fairly vague; we can program operantly-conditioned responses into a future generation before it is conceived.

    Presently, I don't see a transfer matrix, so possibility ultimately remains a matter of speculation.

    • • •​

    It is one thing to invoke the Jungian, as Treffert does, but there is no evidence describing how that collective works. Similarly, Treffert's treatment of Gazzaniga is a little undisciplined or without nuance. The literary review within the article is almost entirely implied and insinuated; even the quoted sections are notoriously vague. The problem seems to be that Treffert has become fixed on a pet thesis; the idea of genetic memory seems far to suitable in a post hoc context, as if this is the outcome and therefore the purpose of the outcome. The history of humanity is littered with harrowing detritus that serves as evidence of what happens when we presume the moment we are born into is that which God most loves.

    Honestly, knock a mathematical system out of balance and watch it phase. Now and then, humanity will produce spectacular results.

    My personal pet thesis is to view some aspect of mind and brain as a filter, such that our thoughts are not so much generated from a pool of information as what remains when we have removed as much extraneous signal as circumstance allows. Impulse is as impulse does; everything else is filtered, such that there is an impulse, and certainly a sensation, or perhaps sensations if we should be picky about degrees. After all, there is hungry, and then there is some manner of, "I could go for a burger". That one could go for a burger, or a bowl of cereal, or chips and salsa, does not, by this outlook, rise up as a thought generated, but, rather, an expression that falls out for being what is left.

    As such, when you see, for instance, a musical savant such as Treffert made famous, what if we are considering filters? If we presume what we normally describe as disability or handicap, how, then, do we describe the filters? How differently are they filtering? If we start looking for the phasing, and patterns in peak and trough—all of this, of course, metaphorical, as we have yet to quantify the values represented in the visualization—every once in a while a particular nexus will occur in some, to put it coldly, aesthetically significant or coincidental context such as what we're describing.

    It is difficult enough to imagine this detail of genetic memory in effect simply within a bloodline—show me the ancestral mathematician or musician—but invoking the Jungian is, presently, doubly ridiculous; that is to say, translating it to a relevant context would difficult enough even if we could demonstrate its existence.

    In his hardware and software analogy, Treffert presumes some manner of particular programming; this presupposition is extraneous.

    Desynchronize dynamic math and you can perceive the phases. If the savant is disrupted, then there is strong likelihood that the savant behavior—defined in significant part by accessibility of aesthetic expression—is a result, a relationship within the math that just happens to express this way instead of another.

    All of that is eventually testable. I don't propose we'll be able to collect the data properly for a while, still; nor would I expect we will be able to read it correctly straight away. Still, the musical savant is an excellent example; music has powerful influence over and in the brain. We knew a bit about mind, but the picture emerging of what music can do to brain is pretty striking. And we should also note that music is really, really mathematical Every once in a while, the math is going to line up, and somebody will be able to do this.

    I couldn't tell you why one "normal" person has a better feel for music than others. Or why one has a better sense of melody while another is a rhythm machine. It's one thing to say they're two fine athletes who can run and lift and jump just alike, but there will also be a reason why ... actually, you know, golf works even better. Seriously: golf. We might note, generally, to those who have not played the game, golf, as stupid as it looks, is ridiculously difficult, and yes, some people just have a feel for it, and it's creepy.

    This is all taking place in people's brains. And none of us are perfect, so there is phasing and irregularity in every one of us. Think of the banshee wind whistling 'round the house or howling over the land. And every once in a while, here and there under just the perfect conditions, all that disrupted sound settles into something that just happens to be harmonic.

    Phase the math, every once in a while the expression will amplify. I consider this much more rational than invoking the Jungian corpus mysterium, or significant data-transfer structures and processes so blatant in their effect yet so subtle as to escape detection. In either case, the potentials of what we already know about are much greater than inventing new literalist expressions of metaphorical fancy.

    I will declare the Jungian real when I find it; I will remove the sorceries from the realm of magick to that of science and technology if ever it should happen that I can. But if these things were so easily discovered I would hardly be the first. Similarly, if we have genetic memory to such a degree, we should have found our way to the Promised Land already. Or maybe there is genetic memory, and we are a failed species, because all this repeating of history was supposed to drive us extinct by now. Can't even kill ourselves right; on the upside, how's that for the epitaph ne'er writ?
     
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  17. The God Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa,

    Your response is more towards philosophy, but nonetheless I like it when you agreed with the possibility of same in near/remote future.

    It is not nihilistic, I am attempting some mythological search, I vaguely recall that in old Hindu scripture there is a mention of same, not able to trace as of now.
     
  18. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    Tell me, do the pay you for posting your bs and using space
     
  19. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I thought this was an interesting article.

    Indeed while reading it I was put in mind of the hereditary "programming" of migrating birds etc. - only to find that that was referred to, later in the article.

    It seems to me quite uncontroversial to regard some brain patterns controlling behaviour as being inbuilt - what we call "instinct". The issue then is how these inbuilt patterns arise in the first place. Can it be by random mutation and natural selection? Seems unlikely. Or can there be some sort of epigenetic-type process at work, which could accelerate it?
     
  20. The God Valued Senior Member

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    As of now your guess is as good as mine.
     
  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes indeed. My question was rhetorical, in the sense that it suggests there could be something real and productive to investigate - i.e. not woo.

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  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Functionally, this reads in a way that seems problematic:

    • Unlikely given observable factors

    • Alternative thesis suggesting unobserved factors​

    We don't need complex programming for basic magnetoreception to function in rather quite important ways. Then again, this is a week in which I seem fixated on some aspect of vagary about presupposition of purpose. It just keeps coming up, to the point I start wondering why I'm noticing.

    But natural selection likely would have involved magnetoreception along the way, possibly prechordata and even preanimalia; the phenomenon is observable in multiple kingdoms or domains. By the time we get to Columba livia, for instance, the programming is inherent from literally countless repetitions potentially reaching so far back as ... well, okay, trying to understand the history of magnetoreception in the evolutionary record is one of those fun adventures we could easily get lost in. But we know magnetoreception occurs in bacteria, and the chatter around cryptochromatic light-based (-driven?) compass functions is one of those smells-like-smoke bits that probably means more in terms of what it implies about once upon a time.

    Epigenetic processes should be somewhat observable. Then again, I've finally accrued enough years that it takes me a moment to recognize that a journal letter I'm looking at is nine years old↱, and very possibly obsolete: Have we found epigenetic evidence? Because that's where I get hung up. We know about photo- and magneto-sensitivity in organisms; what we already know makes sense as a matter of selection—barring Young-Earth Creationism, I have no reason to presume life hasn't had enough time. And speculating backwards, to a time when a lineage was simple enough that it could possibly experience some overlap in photo- and magneto-sensitivities, is not something I am at all uncomfortable with. Magnetic is as magnetic does, but such materials exhibiting magnetic properties will have electrical properties, as well, sure, the idea of saying, "Magnetite is dark, and therefore will retain some heat when lit", is absolutely ridiculous, except we know at some point magnetite became fundamentally involved in particular aspects of living evolution, and there should be some more appropriate framework for overlap. Another journal letter I'm looking at turns out to be thirteen years old↱, and it's helpful because it gives me an earlier view of the magnetite question. And it's all fascinating but it's also speculation. Er ... my part, that is.

    Still, we might find some epigentic answers; Wired considered, in 2013, epigenetics in the potential restoration of the passenger pigeon, which project apparently remains in the hopeful phase.

    And I should add explicitly that epigenetics will as epigenetics do; there are inevitably epigenetic processes involved in the behavioral patterns. The idea of an accelerating effect or framework, though, seems extraneous.

    Or, at least, such comes to mind. I could easily be off on a tangent.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Gould, James L. "Animal Navigation: The Evolution of Magnetic Orientation". Current Biology, v.18, i.11. 3 June 2008. ac.els-cdn.com. 14 March 2017. http://bit.ly/2mpeNDq

    Miller, Greg. "Say We Really Do Bring the Passenger Pigeon Back From Extinction — Then What?" Wired. 26 March 2013. Wired.com. 14 March 2017. http://bit.ly/2mpeCYM

    Mora, Cordula V., et al. "Magnetoreception and its trigeminal mediation in the homing pigeon". Nature, v.432. 25 November 2004. Academia.edu. 14 March 2017. http://bit.ly/2mpjsWh
     
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  23. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I didn't really mean magnetosensitivity in migrating birds. That is clearly a physiological mechanism.

    What I was referring to was instinctive behaviour, i.e. what the bird does with its physiology - fly South for winter or whatever. And equally, other instinctive behaviour. Do we think this is hard-wired in the brain? If so, how did it get like that?

    Or if not, do we think it is somehow taught, anew, in each generation? Seems unlikely, in view of the instinctive behaviour of new born creatures.
     
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