Genetic Memory

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by The God, Mar 12, 2017.

  1. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry not really

    Most of my reading is from my book collection library (real books)

    And chatting with those in the field for the latest info

    My books are well out of date

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  3. Jake Arave Student Registered Senior Member

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    Genetic information as we know it is not as sophisticated as our interpretation of "memory" -- if evidence existed contrary to this it would be a valid question but this is pseudoscience. Let's not make judgments upon what we haven't observed.
     
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  5. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Ummmm I haven't observed 10 quadrillion things

    Will you just give me one to make judgements on?

    On second thoughts lets not do such for even one

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  7. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    I did a bit of digging and came up with

    Medical Epigenetics by

    T O Tollefsbol

    With about 60 contributors

    By Academic Press 2016

    It's a PDF format book of 901 pages of which I have only read page 3

    But I would not put this book in the woo section of a book shop

    More in the Academic Medical Reference section

    Hope this helps

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  8. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Golly I don't think I'm going to pay for a 900pp tome on this! But thanks for looking.
     
  9. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,930
    Not sure where you are but here the library had a budget for requested books

    Some they might get on loan from another library

    Others they might buy if they thought it might upgrade the collection or be a suitable addition

    Mine I found on line

    It looks very very technical and well above my casual interest

    However if I do happen to come across any aspects I will post them

    The chapter arrangement should make it easy to check anything which might crop up in this thread

    If I sniff woo I might be able to check how much is ligit and how deep it has been buried in Cowpat

    Cheers

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  10. The God Valued Senior Member

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    There is some evidence. I think thats why epigenetics. In fact more research on epigenetics could lead to custom memory species without altering the original genetic traits.

    Well it is certainly not woo, but pseudo yes it could be, till some more conclusive stuff surfaces.
     
  11. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,930
    If you can find this book I think you would find it a very technical educational academic read which is far from woo

    My dismissal of much earlier post has to do with the wild leaps of speculation (which is full to the brim of woo covered in Cowpat) and which I still stand by

    It is the over the top hype which is woo

    There is some evidence. I think thats why epigenetics. In fact more research on epigenetics could lead to custom memory species without altering the original genetic traits.

    This is woo

    Not going to happen

    Well it is certainly not woo, but pseudo yes it could be, till some more conclusive stuff surfaces

    Read the book I have referenced and I think you will find it is not pseudo and it details quite extensive research going on

    Again it is the hype which is the woo

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  12. The God Valued Senior Member

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    Michael 345

    Where is the hype? And why are you cluttering this thread with extensive use of woo, bunkum and cowpat and what not.

    If you have read that book which you referred, then you are free to share the extensive research. It may be of use to others. Do not repeat this woo soo thingie, best for you in such cases is to declare a thread or topic woo and stay away.
     
  13. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,930
    If you are unable to detect hype I am sorry for you

    I call it as I see it

    If you are following the thread you should have noted that the book is in a 901 PDF format of which I stated I have only read page 3

    I will read more in any spare time I have but I will also use the book and quote from the book if I think hype is being used to exaggerate the abilities of Epigenetics

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  14. The God Valued Senior Member

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    I do not think that people here are exaggerating the abilities of Epigenetics. No one here has any stake on Epigenetics as yet.
     
  15. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,930
    Yourself before epigenetics came up

    First mention of epigenetics

    Questioning if epigenetics can be a mechanism for memory transfer

    Reference to a article which I read at the time

    and my reply was

    Again there are two aspects here which are not linked epigenetics and learnt memory

    a system which works on the expression of a gene (epigenetics)

    is being asked to absorb a learnt memory
    (learnt memory)

    and use the absorbed memory to modify a gene

    NOT to modify gene expression which is its job

    but change the gene structure which is not its job

    PLUS instill into the gene a learnt memory which is an impossibility

    NOT GOING TO HAPPEN
     
  16. The God Valued Senior Member

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    3,431
    Ok
    Not going to happen.
    If that pleases.
     
  17. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    There is no evidence supporting the notion that acquired knowledge can be transmitted genetically.

    Some Posters have mentioned the migratory behavior of birds as a counter example to the above claim.

    Birds were contemporaries of dinosaurs & have been in existence for circa 150 million years. That is more than enough time for the evolution of their migratory behavior, which is a useful & not complex behavior.

    Some Posters have mentioned various savants as evidence of the inheritance of acquired knowledge.

    Mozart’s musical ability & the mathematical abilities of some so called idiot savants are sometimes mentioned in this context.​

    Mozart’s family were musicians.

    When Mozart he was circa 3 years old, he was an observer of his sister’s music lessons & experimented with her keyboard instrument (I do not think it was a modern piano). He noticed that certain combinations sounded pleasing while others did not.

    It does not take much musical ability to notice that CEG is more pleasing than EFG.

    By age 5, Mozart composed some original music. While he surely had an unusual aptitude for music, his early experiences observing his sister’s lessons & his experimentation with a keyboard supports the notion that he learned rather than inheriting musical abilities.

    The mathematical savants I remember reading about went through a learning phase rather than showing the abilities suddenly as would be expected of genetic inheritance.

    BTW: Infants do show evidence of inherited knowledge of dangerous situations. The most well known has been shown by experiments on a checker board arrangement of transparent & opaque squares. Infants avoid the transparent squares indicating an inherited fear of falling from a potentially dangerous height.

    The above seems to be a worthwhile fear with evolutionary survival value.

    I wonder about investigations of identical twins raised by different families. I have read about such individuals showing a lot of similar characteristics which would be expected to be inherited.

    I have never read about the inheritance of some special ability which was learned by a birth parent.

    An unusual aptitude for mathematics seems inheritable. The knowledge of how to do cube roots via successive approximations does not seem inheritable.
     
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  18. The God Valued Senior Member

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    3,431
    So let's get into a somewhat more reasonable.

    Genetic acquired memory transfer...we do not know much, that seems to be a refrain.

    But can we make a baby learn something while still in womb? Say after brain/baby is sufficiently developed.
     
  19. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,930
    Not sure if any scientific studies have been made (and to lazy to search)

    I do recall a device being peddled which played classical music (? other types of inputs) though speakers attached to a pregnant abdomen

    From memory the idea was to give the child a application of classical music

    Can't recall any claims of it working

    I suspect even after Say after brain/baby is sufficiently developed there is no awareness or context

    Both of which I would contend would be critical to learning anything

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  20. river Valued Senior Member

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    You would not put this book in the " woo " section ?

    How informed of you . Out 901 pgs. You read three and have the opinion of a " woo " section ?

    Really ?
     
  21. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,930
    No I would not put it in the woo section

    You read three and have the opinion of a " woo " section ?

    This part seems to indicate I would???

    I wouldn't

    I have read up to 3 pages

    Have also sampled others

    The general tone of the book seems to be research on epigenetics which (my post observation of another post which the poster seem to think it supports genetic memory transfer (which I consider it does not))

    *
    epigenetics is an annotation or editing of the genome that defines which genes will be silenced in order to streamline protein production or squelch unnecessary redundancy.

    That annotation, they say, does not and cannot permanently change the original manuscript (i.e., DNA), but merely access to the manuscript


    So the book of DNA remains intact but some pages are unavailable

    It also appears those pages can be accessed in offspring and may be other pages locked out

    This is in line with how genes are expressed

    *

    I think the book appears to have academic credentials but it might just be 60+ crack pots venting

    Sorry I don't have time to critique 900 pages but unscientificly I will go with my gut

    Your welcome to read the 900 pages and say it belongs with the woo section and I will accept your finding

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    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  22. river Valued Senior Member

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    Epigenetics , is about the enviroment in which the genes reside .

    Hence it is the enviroment that changes the genes .

    The mitochrodria is the engine of the genes , so if the mitochrondia engine is changed so then are the genes .
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  23. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,930
    Short answer

    More to come

    epigenetics
    ˌɛpɪdʒəˈnɛtɪks/
    noun
    BIOLOGY
    1. the study of changes in organisms caused by modification of gene expression rather than alteration of the genetic code itself.
    Google

    Stand by for more

    Uncertain when

    Nyepi day here in Bali and hotel WiFi dodgy and I am missing a code password for my local pocket WiFi

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