George Floyd trial,could you make a case for the defendant not being guilty of the charges?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Seattle, Mar 30, 2021.

  1. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    So, the Chief Medical Examiner who performed Floyd’s autopsy the day after he died, testified on the stand today that Floyd’s heart condition and drug use were “contributing factors” but the cause of death was from “neck compression and body restraint during the arrest.” Basically, Chauvin and his fellow officers’ actions “tipped him over the edge.”

    After hearing that, I’m left with how could a 20-year veteran not be situationally more aware? Chauvin started off trying to accommodate Floyd in the police car after he was cuffed, but then it all went awry in a hurry. How do you go from accommodating to holding a suspect down for nearly ten minutes, even after he is unresponsive?

    I think Chauvin should take the stand, even though defendants taking the stand is risky.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
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  3. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    You're lying again. I posted facts. I never said it was an exclusive list of every possible fact in the incident, trial, and testimony.
    Check your own motive and quit being such a hypocrite.
     
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  5. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    lol
     
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  7. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sorry. I should have realized that you'd take that as a exhaustive list, even though it only had 15 points covering a 30 minute police interaction and a week of trial testimony.

    What on earth was I thinking?
     
  8. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I think this is a sign to no longer answer.

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  9. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, don't be such a snowflake...I thought you were a butterfly!

    Haha...I just thought I'd try that style of argument. It doesn't really suit me well.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
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  10. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I honestly don’t get it. Why not just discuss the topic? If someone disagrees, help them to understand your point of view. Name calling isn’t a good “debate skill,” imo.
     
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  11. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    Complaints about name-calling are just thin-skinned. People need to learn the difference between ad hominems as argument and criticism along with argument.
    Most around here can't. They'd rather play victim than refute an argument.
     
  12. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Chimps are known to sling a bit of poo aren't they?
     
  13. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    Fling, not sling. There's an art to it.
     
  14. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if the testimony today from the Chief Medical Examiner helped or hindered the prosecution's case? He was a credible witness, and appeared transparent, so much so...I'm questioning if he planted a few seeds of doubt today in the jury's mind. Still have the problem however, of negligence.

    Someone died in police custody, during a physical altercation, where the police used force to restrain someone who (we have now learned) had health issues. This witness may have muddied the waters for the prosecution.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  15. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    In Minnesota, second degree manslaughter (the only charge involving negligence) requires the person "consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm". That would require some demonstration of what Chauvin would have been aware of, again, while distracted by a crowd the other officers and EMTs perceived as a potential threat.
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Agree. Death in custody

    Were the police who had him in custody responsible. ALL of them, some because of their actions, some because of inaction?

    I thought the autopsy Doctor was good more for the prosecution. Was surprised he ruled out Fentanyl as affecting breathing

    Also surprised the female doctor ruled out possibility he would have died if there were no police action given the amount of drugs in his system

    Tolerance of drugs, apparently high in Floyd was mentioned. What I did not hear was the length of time between his taking them (to hide them from the police) and his death

    My contention would be if no attempt to place in cop car and all which followed had NOT occurred, ie they had all just stood around chatting like old friends, Floyd would have suddenly dropped dead from drug overdose due to his ingestion reaching HIS lethal dose

    Even with all Emergency Department personnel with equipment standing alongside him he could not be saved at that stage

    Chauvin (not knowing of the drugs and even with knowledge of the drugs) could / would be charged with failure to render aid if Medical assistance had not been called for at that moment

    But I doubt assistance would not be called for. If Chauvin HAD knowledge of drugs being swallowed, call for Medical assistance should have happened instantly

    Possible Floyd could be saved with aggressive pump out of stomach contents and treatment of any symptoms of his overall health

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  17. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    But, a man died in his custody. The Chief Medical Examiner stated that heart issues and drug use contributed, but didn't cause his death. He believes neck compression and body restraint by the police caused his death. Other expert witnesses testified that the police were likely the cause of Floyd's death. Not sure a 20-year veteran has no idea that he could be inflicting great bodily harm when a suspect is repeatedly saying ''I can't breathe.'' (regardless if Chauvin has heard this before from other suspects during arrests, and didn't take it seriously - maybe that needs to change?) Did he have the intent to kill Floyd? I don't believe so, and don't think that is provable, anyway.

    That's a big ''if'' and not provable but likely, the defense will suggest something to this effect - that Floyd was in poor health, and couldn't withstand ''normal'' procedures when ''resisting'' arrest. I'm just guessing, but it seems that is where Nelson is heading. Police officers arrest people from fit to fat, from healthy to unhealthy, and I'm not seeing Floyd's health as relevant, if most every expert witness is stating that the main cause of death was neck compression and body restraint by the police.


    And here's what other people think:

    https://www.rollingstone.com/cultur...rge-floyd-trial-derek-chauvin-racism-1153952/
     
  18. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    Not a legal argument of wrongdoing. That actually happens quite regularly. The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 17,358 individuals in custody died during the period from 2007 to 2010.

    Only after viewing the videos. His initial autopsy found no evidence to support that as a cause of death. You did listen to his entire testimony, right? Including the cross-examination?

    Again, only after viewing the videos, not based on any physical evidence at all.

    An officer for the prosecution already testified that people regularly claim they can't breathe when being arrested, and that he, himself, had ignored such as insincere. The MPD medical coordinator also testified that, given the crowd at the scene, Chauvin could have mistaken ineffective breathing for effective breathing. You seem to either miss or selectively forget a lot of very relevant testimony given.

    You're not seeing Floyd's health as relevant, even though the medical examiner who performed the autopsy only listed his heart condition on his initial report, only added drugs once he got the toxicology (both actual, physical evidence), and only added neck compression are seeing the videos (but without any corroborating physical evidence)?
    The pulmonologist, Tobin, claimed that a healthy person would have died from that restraint, but I've already posted a video demonstrating that is false. Have you even watched it?

    Are you kidding? RollingStone is as leftist as they come. All of the very sparse links you've cited have been decidedly leftist. No wonder you display such bias.

    Have you even watched the 9 minute 30 second demonstration of someone in that same restraint? Too afraid it might make you change your mind?
     
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Not so sure about that

    I would bet there has been incidents where drugs have been swallowed (to hide from police, smuggling etc) and the person has died

    Find the closest match to this incident to illustrate it happens

    Since I missed large segments of the trail has there been any mentioned of other cases of people in custody dying from being restrained due to asphyxia as per neck compression (healthy of otherwise)
    The chain of events in this seems to be
    • neck compression
    • leads to
    • heart attack
    • leads to
    • lack of circulation
    • leads to
    • asphyxia
    • leads to
    • death
    Have I totally screwed up the sequence?

    The autopsy Doctor did state Cause of death as asphyxia

    And there was a statement to the effect Floyd was attempting to breathe by pushing himself up with his knuckles on the tyre

    But also put forward is / was a claim his eye flicker was the time of his death

    I would contend YES and that would be at heart stop. But I don't know the sequence time line. It HAS to be knuckles/eyes

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  20. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    Drawing direct comparisons to the death of George Floyd, a civil rights lawyer said he’s filing suit against a Florida police department in the death of a 36-year-old white man who collapsed with an officer’s knee on his neck.

    Timothy Coffman died four days after four South Daytona police officers struggled to control him during an arrest in July 2018, attorney Benjamin Crump said Thursday at a news conference where he appeared with Coffman’s mother.

    “It was the knee of the South Daytona Police Department that killed Timothy Coffman,” Crump said.

    The death of Floyd in Minneapolis Police custody has sparked global protests against police killings. A black man, Floyd pleaded for air while offering little resistance to his arrest on May 25. Crump also represents the Floyd family.

    “Like George Floyd, Timothy Coffman has a police officer’s knee on his back until he lost consciousness,” Crump said.

    The South Daytona Police Department declined to comment, citing pending legal action.

    Coffman was violent as officers tried to subdue him, according to body cam video. His autopsy listed the cause of death as “complications of methamphetamine toxicity” and the contributory condition as “physical restraint.”

    No charges were filed against the officers.
    https://apnews.com/article/9612534be8b3885bcbf9d80a36a020bb
    Why was his cause of death listed as “complications of methamphetamine toxicity” and “physical restraint" only a contributory condition? Why were no charges filed against officers? Could be just because he was white? So white privilege is being "murdered by the police" and no one being charged?

    Eric Farah says that had his brother and George Floyd ever met they might have been surprised to learn how much they were alike.

    Despite his brother, Nicholas Farah, 36, being white and from a Wisconsin town near Lake Winnebago and Floyd, 46, being a black resident of Minneapolis, a metropolis of 429,000 people, there were some common threads that ran through both of their lives, he said. They were described by loved ones as doting fathers to their young daughters. Both were raised in strongly religious households and both were said to be guys who would "give the shirt off their back" to help their friends.

    And as Eric Farah and his family have watched protests and outbreaks of violence erupt across the nation in recent weeks in the wake of Floyd's death, they say they've been well aware of a painful commonality, one acutely connected to the frustration exhibited in the demonstrations.

    Autopsies concluded that both men died a little over a year apart as the result of homicide while in police custody, each succumbing to traumatic positional asphyxiation, a problem that has haunted law enforcement agencies for years.

    ...both Floyd and Farah literally had their breath snatched away with their hands cuffed behind their backs while being aggressively restrained after taken into custody on suspicion of relatively minor offenses. Farah's death went largely unnoticed, but Floyd's, the latest in a string of black men killed at the hands of police and captured in excruciating detail on video, sparked national outrage and wide-ranging calls for reform.
    ...
    In Farah's case, police responded to a "disturbance call" at a hotel in Las Vegas on March 31, 2019, and ended up arresting him and taking him to the Clark County Detention Center. Jail video showed the 5-foot-6, 156-pound Farah appear to tense up and struggle, saying "don't" and "quit" as he was being removed from a patrol car, pushed against the vehicle and searched.

    Four officers, including two corrections sergeants, could be seen forcing him into a restraint chair. His head was pushed down between his legs and he was held by the back of his neck for 75 seconds as the officers pulled his hands up behind his back to replace a pair of handcuffs with another. Farah then went silently limp and medical personal standing by noticed he was in distress, according to an investigation report provided to ABC News by the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department (LVMPD). He was taken to a hospital and pronounced dead.

    The Clark County medical examiner ruled Farah's death a homicide, resulting from "asphyxia during restraining procedures, methamphetamine intoxication and obesity."

    It remains unclear if any of the officers involved in Farah's death have been disciplined. An LVMPD official told ABC News that the department "does not release administrative discipline information."
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/doting-dads-george-floyd-nicholas-farah-died-hands/story?id=71054699
    Again, white guy, no criminal charges filed against police, even though it was ruled a homicide due to restraint asphyxia. And they even had video of that one, with medical personnel as witnesses.

     
  21. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    It’s interesting how some on Twitter think he deserves second or third degree murder, but so far anyway, the prosecution hasn’t convinced me of that. Although if you know the appropriate procedures but choose to not use them, there could be an argument made that Chauvin had a “depraved” mind, which is third degree murder.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  22. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Likewise, according to Vociferous, the crowd was "hostile and threatening"--'cuz "You're a bum, man" oughtta scare the bejeezus out of any cop; whereas displays of the Confederate flag are perfectly acceptable, despite the overwhelming perception by Blacks in the south of the flag as both offensive and threatening.
     
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  23. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    If the "crowd" had been confident in their own minds that dangerously excessive/illegal force was being applied to poor George Floyd then imo they would have been justified in applying direct force on the officers involved (although we know that the immediate consequences could have been disastrous even if GF's life might have been saved)
     

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