Get out!

Discussion in 'World Events' started by ThazzarBaal, Oct 19, 2023.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,645
    Which families? The families of people killed by Hamas? Hopefully we will be able to tell them that we are doing something so this doesn't happen again.
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Why do you think this is unprecedented? This is not unprecedented. This has happened before.

    Everything that happened on October 7 has connotations to what happened in 1948 (and then later in 1956).

    When I say everything, I mean everything. When they launched that attack, even Israel expressed shock at the brutality of their actions. But they forget one important thing. What Hamas did that day, was done before in 1948. From how Hamas launched their attacks (paragliders aside) to the nature of their attacks and the brutality. The only thing that was different was the date. But their attacks and actions on that horrific day mirrors a massacre by the Zionist forces in 1948 in Deir Yassin (and in other villages they massacred). And I mean that literally, from how people were killed, the rapes, to even throwing children in hot ovens and burning them alive, the desecration of bodies, to how hostages were taken and driven through the streets and spat on and had rocks thrown at. Perhaps the Israeli government should go back to their archives and review those files they have denied access to since that day and see how the brutality of October 7 eerily mirrors the brutality of the 9th of April, 1948. We know what happened that day because there were survivors and those who took part in it or witnessed it later recounted the horror of what occurred.

    Take out Hamas and the Palestinians would still be forced to live in an open air prison, their access to food, water, fuel, sanitation, medical supplies, etc, still controlled by Israel and only provided with the bare minimum and they would still be bombed periodically, children would still be shot for throwing rocks, the wall would still be present and they would still be denied their fundamental human rights. Palestinians aren't locked up in Gaza because of Hamas. They were forced there and have been there since 1948 with no right of return to their homes or land.

    People carry on about Israel needing to take out Hamas and then what? Do they think life would improve for Palestinians in Gaza? No. It would not. Because life has been like this in Gaza since 1948. Don't even get me started on the West Bank.

    The situation has always been like this in Gaza.

    Hamas did not arise in a vacuum.
    Do you think that will bring them comfort?

    They want to know why their government is doing nothing to attempt to negotiate a release of their loved ones and I don't blame them one bit. Your being able to tell them that bombing Palestinians out of existence may mean this won't happen again isn't exactly a viable solution, is it?
     
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  5. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

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    Hamas didn't rise out of a vacuum. I might agree. I suppose the organization that is Hamas has some deep seeded resentment against Israelis. I think this is evident enough. The tunnel systems have apparently been in process for a couple decades ... More or less. They've become quite advanced over the years. The vacuum, if not present, well ... It's not the Palestinian people Israel came against, it's Hamas. Like you stated, they did not come up in a vacuum.

    It's an organization correct? Hasbalah, the Taliban, Isis, Hamas all variants of a similar mindset, intent or rather "tree" type. Correct?

    What's their purpose? Do you know?
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,645
    Yes. That's why families who lost their children to cancer often start charities to fund research into cancer cures, so that other families won't have to suffer like they did. Apparently, working towards preventing other families from suffering a similar fate does indeed bring comfort.
    Since no one is proposing that other than you, it's not even close to reality.
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Ask Hamas or Bibi..

    https://www.wionews.com/world/expla...came-the-frankensteins-monster-for-him-651336

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/isra...ns-to-egypts-sinai_n_654106abe4b0ae2dc0b55024
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Weird comparison..

    It's not the same and you know it.

    This is the war Bibi had to have. The Israeli government has not proposed anything but bombing them out of existence. I don't have to propose anything. We can watch it live on the news.
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,645
    I didn't claim it was the same. I claimed that families get comfort when they work towards preventing other families from losing their children.
    Sounds like you haven't been following the news.

    Israel has proposed a three phase plan. The first phase is airstrikes followed by ground troops intended to destroy infrastructure that Hamas uses. The second phase is a lower intensity ground troop effort to root out and defeat pockets of Hamas remaining. The third phase will involve ending Israel's direct control over Gaza and establishment of a new more independent security system for Palestinians.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/galla...israel-will-seek-new-security-regime-in-gaza/

    Of course we will not hear everything about their plan since Hamas watches the news as well.
    Then do so! You'll learn more about the conflict.
     
  11. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    1,044
    I don't know Bells but I assumed he is a humanitarian, judging from his PM to me I now know that he is.
    I joined this forum because of science and I have commented on two political threads already.
    Very easy to get into conflict over something like this and I should probably leave this one here, stick to tech stuff.
    If I know about the subject!
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Some do and it depends on the situation.

    How well do you think it will go if the families work to prevent other October 7 attacks by pointing out the government's failures?

    A child dying from cancer is not the same as a child being kidnapped by terrorists and then bombed by their own government or killed because the government sees negotiating for their release to be a form of surrender.
    Is the Israeli government establishment of a new more independeng security system for Palestinians come before or after Israel drive them out of the region? Or will it be a proxi of Israel? Will Palestinians simply continue as they have been for decades under the brutal control of Israel?

    Bibi has no interest in an independent Palestinian state.

    He is a she and my response to your pm would hardly be considered to be a discouragement of participating in this or any discussion on this site. Quite the opposite in fact!

    And yes, I am a lefty commie humanitarian.
     
  13. Pinball1970 Valued Senior Member

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    1,044
    No! That's not my reason for leaving the thread discussion.
    Political, social, philosophical arguments can get nebulous and emotive.
    This conflict will be endless coverage of babies covered in rubble dust, in tears, screaming for help. Palestinian babies at this point. I am angry they have been put in this position.
    You are angry that this position had precursors, which had horrible precursors.

    I am not the best person to argue about that is all.

    Not equipped with enough history either.

    It's a compliment Bells.
     
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  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,645
    Agreed.
    If they think that will prevent another such event - then perhaps it would give them some comfort.
    I didn't say it was.

    You are making strawman arguments. Shame on you.
    Did you always use strawmen arguments, or is this something you have just started in the past few years?
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Says the guy who brought in the 'parents helping others to find comfort'. Spare me your fake pearl clutching.

    And did you always avoid answering a simple question by lobbing insults? Or did you learn that while I was away?

    Let's see, you have accused me of not understanding what's going on and telling me that perhaps I should watch more of the news, and then you were kind enough to give me such a good explanation of Israel's plan. I ask you a valid question about Israel's plan, and this is your response? Let me guess, in your zeal to defend and explain what they are doing and create your own strawman arguments, you missed the news that Israel has been contemplating how they might go about expelling all Palestinians from Gaza and how that might be achieved?

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/isra...ns-to-egypts-sinai_n_654106abe4b0ae2dc0b55024

    But I guess they can just bomb them out of existence instead! Then they don't have to worry about how Egypt might respond. Is bombing a refugee camp a part of their plan Billvon? What phase does this fall under? But hey, I guess they were kind enough to drop leaflets before they bombed the refugees who had nowhere to escape to to smitherines. I guess they figure Hamas are too busy watching the news to read pamphlets that they are about to bomb a refugee camp:

     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2023
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,645
    Ah you missed the point there. Too bad.
    You thought that "the Israeli government has not proposed anything but bombing them out of existence." Now you know better, hopefully.
    No, you didn't. Specifically you asked whether their plan would "come before or after Israel drive them out of the region?" Which is the same fallacy as asking someone if they still beat their wife (or if they always use strawman arguments.)

    So let me rephrase your question so it does not assume the answer.

    " When is the Israeli government establishment of a new more independeng security system for Palestinians going to occur?" They didn't say. The endpoint will probably be at a nebulous time when the Hamas threat has been reduced enough for the Israelis to live with, I imagine. But there is no official timeline.

    If you prefer. I very much hope they come up with a better solution than that.
    Unfortunately yes. Because Hamas regularly hides in refugee camps, hospitals, in nurseries, orphanages etc.
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    How about your don't rephrase my questions?

    Sounds good, yes?

    Israel always knew what Hamas was and the danger they posed. After all, Hamas is their evil child. Hey! Maybe this might now apply:
    But my question still remains. Does Israel's plans for Gaza come before or after they drive the Palestinians out? Or perhaps bomb them out of existence?

    Aside from the frankly obscene nature of your comment to begin with, given history (apparently colonisers are still to learn about history), do you actually believe Israel replacing one with another is a viable solution? What say do the Palestinians have in the matter? Oh wait, they don't really count here, do they? They never have. They have consistently been denied any autonomy throughout history.

    And that makes it okay, in your opinion?

    Tell me, how many Palestinian lives does it take to account for one Israeli life lost on October 7? 10? 20? 100? 1000?

    I made the point earlier about an appropriate and proportionate response. Knowingly bombing innocent civilians counts as neither appropriate or proportionate.
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,893
    Is that really where you want to go, Bill? Let's try looking at this exchange, derived from #4-7 above↑:

    ThazzarBaal: Goal seems to be to dismantle Hamas, limit the casualties, while taking measures to help ensure hostage liberation, including the Palestinian civilians who live in Gaza from Hamas.

    Tiassa: "Limit the casualties"? That's some thin messaging.

    Billvon: The messaging isn't important. Reducing the number of noncombatants killed is.

    It was already apparent that Israel was not trying to "limit the casualties"; "reducing the number of noncombatants killed" was similarly obvious. These days later, what was already apparent is now ridiculous.

    Today, for instance, socmed is abuzz with Wolf Blitzer↱, former AIPAC propagandist, trying to wrap his head around Israeli disregard for noncombatants after IDF bombed a refugee camp.

    But from that earlier discussion in this thread arises an obvious point, in #10↑, when Bells points out the problem with TB's approach to the issue: "Israel has decided to target the tunnels with their bombardments. Given that is where the hostages are being held, I don't think Israel gives a fig about the hostages being at risk." And in #12↑ clarifies according to a challenge put before her: "Because they are bombing the places they know the hostages are being held." And for this reason, she explains, "They do not seem that interested in getting the hostages back and ignored warnings about the attack in the lead up to it."

    And your challenge, Bill, in #16↑, is arbitrary: "I think they are interested in getting the hostages back. They are even more interested in preventing more hostage-taking." That is to say, you think so despite all appearances to the other. And Bells' response, at #18↑, is not arbitrary; when she tells you to, "Tell that to the families," she also provides coverage from an Israeli conservative newspaper to back her point.

    In #21↑, you either get confused, or change the subject: "Which families? The families of people killed by Hamas? Hopefully we will be able to tell them that we are doing something so this doesn't happen again." As long as you're admonishing straw men, sure, whatever, Bill. In #22↑, Bells is consistent to her argument, which in turn abides what you were saying before you changed the subject. "Do you think that will bring them comfort?" she asks, continuing, "They want to know why their government is doing nothing to attempt to negotiate a release of their loved ones and I don't blame them one bit." And do you see that phrase, Bill, the one that goes, "release of their loved ones"? Yes, Bill, that was what you were talking about before your straw switch in #21. "Being able to tell them that bombing Palestinians out of existence may mean this won't happen again," as Bells summarizes, is in fact an accurate point, and when, in #24↑ you suggest, "no one is proposing that other than [Bells]", you are incorrect.

    Meanwhile, you also go on, in #24, to introduce a strange analogy: "That's why families who lost their children to cancer often start charities to fund research into cancer cures, so that other families won't have to suffer like they did." It's such a grotesque and insulting simplification, Bill. I mean, sure, "Apparently, working towards preventing other families from suffering a similar fate does indeed bring comfort", but the part of the story you're not telling is where, instead of treating the cancer, the doctors are going to spend money and resources refusing to treat the cancer. (It probably helps to pay attention to what Bells is actually saying, instead of burning your own sosobra.)

    So, yes, it's a weird comparison (#26↑), and inasmuch as you "didn't claim it was the same" (#27↑), the claim you did make was derived from a fallacious comparison. To wit, #29↑: "A child dying from cancer is not the same as a child being kidnapped by terrorists and then bombed by their own government or killed because the government sees negotiating for their release to be a form of surrender." And arriving at your pretentious moralization in #31↑, "I didn't say it was. You are making strawman arguments. Shame on you", we also catch a glimpse of you running away from your own argument.

    Thus—

    —that zinger is an argument you're going to lose on merit.

    Bells, at #26, in re "the war Bibi had to have", and the point that the "government has not proposed anything but bombing them out of existence", are the parts your cancer analogy skips over, the part of the story where the doctors are going to spend money and resources refusing to treat the cancer, with the result of either excacerbating the suffering or hastening the death of the patient. And it's one thing to moralize, as you do in #27, that it sounds like someone hasn't been following the news, but it sounds more like you're listening to politicians.

    This is an ethnic cleansing campaign, Bill; your recitation of three phases is naïve at best.

    • Funny story, okay, not really. An Israeli sigint unit called 8200 apparently stopped monitoring Hamas radio traffic over a year ago. It's just one of those little screw-ups that made the spectacular success of the Hamas incursion possible. But more than that, a former Israeli military officer named Eliyahu Yossian has achieved infamy, yesterday, declaring, "There is no population in Gaza. There are 2.5 million terrorists". And if he happened to be an officer with 8200, it's just a weird coincidence.

    • An Israeli television network, in a weird coincidence, lists Palestinian deaths as terrorists killed.

    • It is, of course, utterly coincidental that Netanyahu was seen pushing an ethnically cleansed map of Israel less than two weeks before the Hamas attack.

    • Many news organizations, and probably their diplomatic sources, are giving Israel a certain benefit of the doubt insofar as we don't have the actual smoking-gun proof that the government officially adopted that one consultancy report on cleansing the region and relocating the survivors into Sinai.​

    Or, as Bells put it in #29, "Bibi has no interest in an independent Palestinian state."

    So your recitation of three phases reads more like a pitch, a performance for the fourth wall, than any subtantive response to Bells. It has nothing to do, for instance, with the hostages, or reducing the number of noncombatants killed.

    And in its way, this is morbidly impressive: Hamas has committed an atrocity, possibly the greatest toll against Judaism since the Holocaust, yet Israel has managed to make itself notorious. It's not just the pictures, it's not just the videos. It's not just that Khalil died, that someone you were just now reading or watching is suddenly gone. What does it is the shamelessness. What does it is the pride. What does it is the blithe disregard, the dehumanization, the epistemic boundaries.

    Hamas committed an atrocity, and as even Israelis wonder how the hell that could have happened in the first place, Netanyahu would use it as pretext for the ethnic cleansing he has pursued for over a quarter-century. Santized recitation of three phases refuse to acknowledge what the words mean. Even the article you point to so confidently makes the point, "a new security reality for the citizens of Israel". That is to say, the meaningless political vagaries include dangerous insinuation.

    And one of the reasons the Israelis just can't stop with those insinuations, and only fail to reassure, is that they have no intention of stopping. This is an ethnic cleansing campaign, and it's pretty obvious when people pretend it isn't.

    Maybe that's why you can't answer a question without rephrasing it to suit your need↑. Someone as naïve as your sanitized pitch pretends probably shouldn't be saying stuff like, "Now you know better, hopefully." That you're down to wagging and shaming according to false pretenses isn't surprising. Take the note: The old presuppositions don't work, this time, because people can see through them.

    Like the "three-phase plan", which would probably sound better if it was an actual plan. It probably sounded good as easy diplomatic talk after questions arose about Israel's exit strategy or lack thereof, but in the days since, concerns have only grown. This still looks and sounds like an ethnic cleansing campaign.
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,645
    If you don't want your questions reprashed, avoid asking "have you stopped beating your wife?" questions.
    No, it will likely be no better than what they have now.
    Nope.
    I'd settle for every single Hamas life and zero innocent Palestinians. Given that that's impossible, as close to that as possible.
     
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  20. TheVat Registered Member

    Messages:
    82
    Or, alternatively, abandon the revenge-based philosophy of tit for tat, and work towards a real two state solution that returns Palestinians to the land stolen from them and ends the concentration camp-like conditions into which they have been forced for the past decades. Yes, both sides have horrible and brutal actors who are killing innocents. (one side coldly killing them from thousands of feet up while saying "oops!" doesn't make them morally superior to the other) Hamas and Likud both appear to be radical factions which like to answer all problems with violence and oppression. Each garners votes by means of promising justice and security, by means of bombs and guns and heaps of collateral damage. Each speaks in language that thinly veils ethnic cleansing of the other. Neither party acts in the real interests of peace and coexistence of different ethnic groups in that part of the world. Someone in Israel with influence needs to stand up and say, our present approach will simply create more future terrorists, let's try making peace that includes some justice for the dispossessed.
     
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  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,893
    PM's Spox Sez (Freudian Whiplash)

    "But I can tell you that we are not targeting anyone else in Gaza but civilians. Hamas is cyncially―… but, rather, ah, terrorists, of course."

     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,893
    Sinai and the Way of This Way

    It's one of the things about the way things go; I had hedged, where Bells didn't, on the point that the Israel government had not formally endorsed the report. And it only took, what, er … oh, well, see, I was already obsolete.

    Yesterday:

    Israel is proposing writing off a significant chunk of Egypt's international debts through the World Bank to entice the cash-strapped Abdel Fattah el-Sisi government to open its doors for displaced Palestinians, according to the Israeli Ynet website.

    Egypt is currently mired in a debt crisis, ranking second only to Ukraine among countries most likely to default in debt payments.

    The state is haemorrhaging half its revenue in interest payments and is reliant on loans from the IMF and wealthy Gulf states, limiting its ability to contradict US foreign policy.

    However, it remains unclear whether Israel wields adequate influence at the World Bank to write off Egypt's international debts.


    (Hearst↱)

    This is an ethnic cleansing campaign. Any recitation of Israeli talking points that does not acknowledge what the military action is actually doing, e.g., slaughtering civilians, has run out of excuses for the failure.

    When Israel's method of reducing the number of noncombatants killed↑ is to tell people to leave so they won't be killed, it's still ethnic cleansing. And if the goal seems to be↑ to "dismantle Hamas, limit the casualties", and liberate the people of Gaza by driving them into the desert, it's still ethnic cleansing. If the way to survive is to "Get out!" as the title has it, yes, it's an ethnic cleansing campaign.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Hearst, Katherine. "Israel-Palestine war: Israel reportedly proposed writing off Egypt's debts for hosting Gaza refugees". Middle East Eye. 31 October 2023. MiddleEastEye.net. 1 November 2023. https://bit.ly/3sdCI0T
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,645
    That would be great. But given that Hamas is calling for the extermination of every single Jew on the planet, and explicitly rejects any peaceful two-state solution, that has some practical problems.

    A video of Hamad Al-Regeb, a Hamas Sheikh, contains the prayer “Oh Allah, bring annihilation upon the Jews. Paralyze them, destroy their entity. Oh Allah, enable us to get to the necks of the Jews.”

    Fathi Hamad, Hamas leader: "Seven million Palestinians outside, enough warming up, you have Jews with you in every place. You should attack every Jew possible in all the world and kill them."

    Hamas charter, 1988: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
     

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