I dreamed of my Dieties once again. They danced about me, shifting shapes, teasing me like I was a child. I begged Them to slow down! and teach me Their dance, I wanted so much to whirl and twirl about like They were. They laughed and danced even more nimbly, daring me to try to join Them. I stood up and began to walk the circle with Them. At first, They passed me up, over and over, skipping ahead of me then dancing backwards while looking back at me and holding out Their hands to encourage me to go faster. They began to look like gypsies, dark and pretty. At last, I was up to speed, and could leap and twirl and still keep up with Them. He and She linked arms with me, He on my right, She on my left. The three of us leapt into the air, the ground fell away, and we were spinning and dancing in the air. I was not afraid, how could I be with my Parents on each side of me? It got darker, and darker. Far below us was a flickering fire. We began to wind down, dancing slower, getting closer to the ground. When our feet touched ground, They unlinked their arms and held my hands, and walked the circle with me three times. He began to speak to me. "This is the trinity, one of three times three trinities you will come to understand. Three is our holy number, three times three is your holy number, and three times three times three is the universe's holy number." I nodded like I understood, but I didn't. He looked into my eyes, and I knew that He knew I didn't understand, but He nodded at me just the same. I turned to Her, waiting for Her advice. She looked at me, She was splendid in her gypsy rags, and She put her finger to Her lips. "You haven't taken my first advice yet." She chided me. I hung my head, deflated. She is right. I have not. I asked Her, "Can I ask you something anyway?" She shook Her head 'no', then glanced over my head at Her mate. I smelled lemon and pine, and They were gone. I was left alone on a dark plain, with a dying campfire, and yet I was filled up with peace. I knelt at the embers and traced a pentagram in the ashes, to show Them that I knew Who they were, and that I was trying. Pondering this this morning, I realize that debating God, Goddess, etc. is futile. They are like a dream - incredibly real to the one who experiences Them, but naught more than a myth to all others. There will never be proof to satisfy the skeptics, the skeptics will just have to wait until the dream finds them. For those of you who didn't see my previous post, the advice the Goddess gave me the first time around that I've been ignoring was that I shouldn't debate religion, not yet. She says I'm not ready yet, and I think She must be right. In my clumsiness and angst, I have said(typed) things I have later regretted, especially to those like our dearly departed Dorothy-Truestory, and our now missing Lori. Had I listened to Her in the first place...sigh. I wonder, Tiassa - maybe you have insight on this - what on earth (or in the universe, it seems) does 3 x 3 x 3 have to do with the universe? Is it some reference to a triple-triple of some kind, or is it the actual number 27? Nine always has been my lucky number, I noticed it when I was about 14 or so and it always seems to come up, so that part makes sense to me. And the first three trinities He was talking about seemed to be the three of us, and the two trinities of the God and Goddess themselves. I guess I have six more trinities to understand. So much to learn. Good thing I have eternity to figure it out, huh? LOL. Bright blessings to everyone, this fine spring day. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
MoonCat .... Blessed be the day, and wishes of the Maiden's joy unto you. Thank you for for sharing your magick, and also for the invitation. The proximity of that magick inspires me to disclaim: Let these words Do no harm to thee or me Bring no harm to thee or me Cause no harm to thee or me .... (SMiB) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please forgive the scattered nature of what follows; I'm dredging this up without notes. You have, in your post, given me much to think about, and I'm sure I'll get back to these things when I've had a chance to provide citations for the sources of my opinions. But, for the time being, you caused several quick, initial responses. I'd like to start with the numbers: No matter how you cut three and three and three, it seems to come up nine. This I would refer to basic numerology and to contemporary mathematics. 3x3=9 (3+3+3); 3 to the power of three is 27, which numerology lists as nine (2+7). (As a slightly related note, I wonder if this is accounted for when adding up the totals in theomatics; even if you accomplish something that equals 666, it still adds up to 9 [6+6+6=18 ... 1+8=9]). The significance of three? You've hit it perfectly with the God and Goddess as parentage. Man, woman, child. I read that recently, though, from a contemporary occultist, so I'm unsure of the idea's historical development. In this sense, I would say that one is the soul, alone; two is the potential for union; three is the potential for growth. Aleister Crowley employed, from time to time, the Naples Arrangement, which counted from a triune zero to ten. The greater the numbers, the greater the tangible glory of the idea, from mere existence to unmitigated bliss. But the greater the glory, the more necessarily vulgar are the conditions to achieve that Glory. In that sense, one is the "point" of science and math; two is the line from A to B; three, if independent of two, becomes the first comparative, that A is closer to C than C is to B. That can represent a moment of awareness, of "I". Earth is the third planet from the sun. As a side note, the Hopi passed through three Other Worlds before achieving the one in which we encounter them. Hebrew traditions and structures see threes, as well. There are four letters (final consonants), which change in pronunciation and numerical value when placed at the end of a word. I have seen the four grouped together, and also split into three and one, so that Mem (associated with element Water) is viewed maternally, with the other three equal to but produce of Mem. The Holy Trinity ... the Triune Goddess ... I would be willing to assert for a tavern argument that this is why the American government is divided into "three branches". Um ... Twelve apostles ... 12=1+2=3. For the record, American Satanism has been fascinated with four-sided objects since at least 1966 (Zero Aquarius); thirteen unlucky? It's twelve apostles plus one (the Devil) so that 13=1+3=4 ... there is a Satanic organization in this country somewhere called the Order of the Trapezoid--read about it years ago briefly in a horrible book about cults. But again, I'm on a tangent. And so forth ... there's quite a bit on the number three; more than the symbols themselves, I think someday we might be able to identify the common thread that makes three so darn special to human beings. All of this stuff is part of it, but I still don't get enough of that mystery. Beyond the immediacy of your dream, though, I am at a loss for what place 3x3x3 holds for the Universe. It could be an earthbound limitation, an inherent manifestation of a perspective we see when tied to one place in the Universe. It could also be officially part of the Grand Mystery of the Universe. But I'm hard-pressed to find anything of worth to offer regarding the format of your dream. I'm inclined to believe that when the powers that be communicate, they do not temporarily re-wire our brain, leaving our visions subject to Freudian intrusions, and other such mundane mental quirks. The sum of that being that my personal experience leads me to odd conclusions, especially where the Goddess is concerned. I am unqualified to "judge" the details of your vision as genuine or not. Oh! If it all comes back to nine, why does the modern Craft still employ a circle approximately nine feet across? (Just another thing about nine.) And I just read through it all ... I'm not much help, am I? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Not to be taken entirely seriously: Right now the only thing that keeps pinging my head is the Split-Hex tarot layout. If you're into the cards, it's a great single-party tarot reading where the querient and the reader can be one and the same. Two triangles with a card in between each, thus -1 2 - 3 - 7 - 6 -4 5 The top two are merely reflections of the querient's spiritual motivations, seen in the form of the spirits governing the reading. Card three is spiritual "advice" based on the first two when related to the question at hand. Four and five are tangible concerns, specifically prevailing motivation (4) and secret desire (5). Six is practical advice, much as three is spiritual. Seven is the best "answer" the cards will give. It is not specific. It does not tell the future. It seems to produce a smarmier response the greedier the querient gets with the subject matter. I, personally, employ it as a psychological tool, as opposed to a true divining. I use it specifically because it's shorter than the Rosicrucian Cross or that goofy spiral design Crowley uses for the Thoth readings, and also because it's quite easy to do without a separate querient and diviner. The coolest thing--and the reason it's so damn easy to read--is that you only draw from 22 cards, specifically, the Major Arcana; the advisements are usually spelled out in broad trends. That broad trend, more often than not, is: "Are you really sure you want this answer?" But the cards are just an affection of mine; as to systems of dubious or apocryphal success, let me say that the reason I like the cards is that they're more accurate than horoscopes; to the other, the only horoscope that ever works is Breszny's Real Astrology, which I'm led to believe has nothing to do with astrology and more to do with alcohol-fueled rants on mysticism and morality. So bear in mind that, if you're not already tarot user, I can't offer any definite benefits, except that it's one more way to play around inside your own mind. Wow ... ranting, instructing, and probably some condescending. I apologize for those things, as my ego sometimes escapes me. One specific question, though ... when the Goddess denied you your question ... was she smiling? (I'm gonna run before I get seriously out of hand. Damn provoking, though ... please rest assured that the numbers, and the nature of the God and Goddess will occupy my thoughts much over the coming days; for that, I must thank you for that generosity.) until merrily we meet, upon the windy crest, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (Edits: Apologies; fix the card layout and make a grammatical change to remove confusion.) ------------------ The whole business with the fossilized dinosaur eggs was a joke the paleontologists haven't seen yet. (Good Omens, Gaiman & Pratchett) [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited March 22, 2000).]
Tiassa~ I didn't even realize that 27 is 2+7=9! I know three is a sacred number to a lot of different systems, thanks for the rundown, you showed me some new stuff. I had forgotten about the Hopi's. Mmmm. Yes, She was smiling. When She put her finger to Her lips She looked for all the world like an older sister reminding me of a secret we shared or something. She looked young and beautiful, I guess that's the season showing through. It's funny, in both my dreams of Her, She has chided me about something or another, but always in the most gentle and caring manner, I can't even feel defensive about it. In real life, I felt over-criticized by my "real" mother, but somehow when She does it, I KNOW it's right, and I KNOW it's for my own benefit. I cannot even conceive of an ulterior motive - I know She's not just tired and crabby, or trying to keep me from making the same mistakes She did in her childhood or something. She does treat me like a child a little bit, but spiritually I think I still am, so maybe that's why Her criticism is so easily taken. She doesn't want to move on to lesson #2 until I've managed to learn lesson #1, is my conclusion. But She's loving in her refusal, and She manages not to make me feel inept because I haven't learned #1 yet. Does that make sense? I haven't digested this dream fully yet either, I can still almost smell the lemon and pine in my nose, I could almost still feel the air under my feet when I posted this morning. (The dream was from just last night, so it's very fresh) I played with the cards as a teenager, but not very seriously. I still have my decks, but I haven't touched them since "taking up the broom". For scrying or divining purposes, I tend to lean towards oddball stones, for some reason. I have a velvet bag of stones, and I'll pull some out at random and just gaze at them and let my mind wander as I play with them. Insight will usually come, I'll see a flash of light reflect that will suggest a shape, or the clinking together will momentarily sound like a voice... Cards might fit with me later on, but right now I have SO MUCH to learn, I'm kind of holding off. Plus my decks are all Rider-Waite, so I want to buy a prettier set to learn on. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hi guys. MoonCat, I don't mean to intrude on your discussion but I have a question concerning your dream. When you dream do you always retain your sense of smell. In my own experience I have never had a full sense system. It felt implied, I knew I touched but didn't FEEL the touch, I am aware of smell but don't actualy smell anything, its as if I'm experiencing the dream in the first person but my interaction is in the 3rd person..I'm struggling to explain it. However I have had one fantastic experience. In this Dream (or what ever it was) I was aware of everything, smell, touch, taste, sight the works....I fully believe that I was experiencing a physical reality, it couldn't be a dream. I wasn't asleep, I had smoked some realy realy good pot, and put a CD on, don't take that the wrong way, I can smoke a crop and be in full control, drive, work, teach, design satelite systems (I have actually done this stoned), so the drugs i believe were only a catalyst for my experience...anyway I wasn't sleeping I new that my body was comfortable in a lounge chair, and my friends were all around me, but none of that mattered, they were the dream and me flying through the most magnificent forest was the REALITY....it was amazing, I have never had that experience again...... Do you believe you dreamt or experienced a different reality????
Rambler~ Merry Meet! You're not intruding at all! This is a public board, after all, so jump right on in! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! In my dreams I usually do have a pretty good grasp on all of my senses. I have always had dreams in color (which some people seem to think is impossible for some weird reason), and yeah, I've smelled before in my dreams too, but I don't think as often. The only other dream that comes to mind right now that I could smell in was as a kid I dreamt I found my cat dead in the yard, and I could smell that cloying sweet smell that dead bodies give off. That was a creepy dream, I was about 10 or 11 I think. But it might be that that one just sticks out the most, I usually don't really notice any smells in my dreams one way or the other. The dreams I have had with the Goddess and God do seem more crisp, more animated, more consistent and cohesive than my regular dreams. I seem to be pretty lucky, I dream a lot and I usually can remember at least parts of them. But usually they're somewhat disjointed and flowy - I'll be inside a room, then instantly outside without any travel between and things like that. But this dream, and the other one I had (where the Goddess was a tree - the first "face to face" conversation I had had) were extremely realistic. In my first dream, I can't really remember any particular scent. It was very rich in sound and touch mostly. This one was even more rich, I could feel heat from the campfire below us, I could hear their feet on the ground, I could smell the lemon & pine... I didn't taste anything, that's about the only sense that was left out of this one. I don't know that it was any kind of alternate reality. I was definitely asleep. I think perhaps They just helped focus the dream better, to make it so I would remember better? As I'm typing this, I'm also beginning to wonder if they're sort of working me up to more intense experiences - in my first dream, She wasn't even human - She was a tree the whole time, and God was nowhere to be seen. This time, both of Them were there in human shapes, and They interacted with me more intensely. Perhaps my dreams will get progressively more intense? Perhaps I will begin to be able to see Them in my waking hours? I hope so. Maybe I'm not quite ready now, or something, so They're taking it slow?? Or maybe They want me to do a little more work on my own to see Them during the day? I don't know. I have a group of Pagans I meet with every two weeks, most of them are much more experienced in this than I am. One of them is very good at guiding people on vision quests, perhaps she can help me find Them during the daytime. She took another one of the girls on a vision and they found Raven, and to hear this girl describe what she saw, it's amazing. And this is without heavy drugs or anything. They smoke a smoking mixture she makes & blesses specifically for vision quests, but it's mostly mugwort & coltsfoot and a dash of mint, so it's not a psycotropive. Not that I'm bashing pot, don't get me wrong, I smoke that stuff myself. But I avoid it when I'm trying to tap into the astral plane or trying to do any kind of magickal or similar work - I don't want to have to question whether or not it's real or just an overactive imagination. I do believe that "alternate realities" do exist, and I hope to be able to reach them some day or another. I think it's entirely possible you did have an OBE (Out of Body Experience), I have met quite a few quite rational people who say they have had and continue to have OBE's. I don't think I personally have had one just yet, but I'm working my way in that direction. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If I ever find myself flying through a forest, I'll keep my eyes open for you! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
MoonCat, You have put a smile on my face, Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! see. Warmest regards Rambler
Mooncat, are you wiccan,Pagan, or just dabbling. Was just curious. Anyway, MM in our solitary circle my wife and i follow somewhat the Triple Goddess being Mother,Maiden,and Crone another series of 3 like Tiassa was saying. It all goes back to Numerology if you havent noticed numbers many everything symbolically. Look into numerology and there is also the Witches Book of Symbolism can't remember the author but can get it back to you. Send me an email if you like, will gladly discuss it more. Still dont have a computer, wish we had never hocked ours dammit, im havint puter withdrawls. Got the Chaplains handbook pertaining to my rights as a Wiccan in the military pretty interesting lol, anyway gots to go....on my lunchbreak and theres still trucks to fix fore i can go home Take care all and MP until we meet again, In Love and Light, ------------------ Eric Cooper
Eric~ Merry Meet, my friend! I would classify myself as Pagan, with wiccan influences/leanings. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Nice and clear, huh? LOL. I have been reading as many books as I can find time for, Cunningham, Buckland, and the Farrars among others. I also belong to a pagan group of about 8 or 9, but we're just forming so we don't have a lot of rules and rituals in place just yet. I have only been practicing since November or December, so I'm still new to a lot of the lore and such, but the core of Paganism strikes such a chord with me, it's that old coming-home feeling that most of us "heathens" seem to experience when we first find our Pagan selves. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I'm sorry to hear you're having computer jitters. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I just got mine fixed (FINALLY!). I have heard of the book you mentioned, I don't have a copy of it though. I can find the author, don't worry about it. I had forgotten about that one, I'll have to pick up a copy. Good idea! Tony~ Thank you for the concern. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I understand why you feel the way you do, but I disagree with you. (woah, big surprise, huh?) LOL. Let me start off by saying that I do question every thing I'm told. I question everything I read, everything I imagine, evey word I hear. For the most part, my dieties are somewhat forcing me to do this, they ask me questions that make me look inside myself, they don't do the work for me. I haven't posted the bulk of our conversation, it's very personal. Let me just say that I didn't hear "what I wanted to hear". I received quite a lecture from Her, a gentle lecture, but a lecture none the less. Get this: part of the lecture was Her telling me to lay off on the Christians. Would a evil spirit/demon spawn/whatever tell me to turn around and take a second look at Christianity when I had already decided it held nothing for me? That just doesn't fit in with these beings you're nervous about, according to your & Lori's descriptions. I had already thrown Christianity in the spiritual trashcan, what purpose would these beings have in making me pull it back out and smooth out the wrinkles for a second look?? Doesn't mesh with your theory. As far as their attitude towards Jesus himself goes, I haven't queried them about him directly yet. They, or more accurately, She told me in the course of our conversation that the Christians are "just as right" as I am, so I take that to mean that they hold Jesus in respect. Which, unexpectedly, makes me want to give the bible a second chance. I'll never be a Christian like you are, though, Tony. The attitudes are not right for me, never have been. The teachings and legends in the bible are worthy, but I don't think they are the whole story or 100% accurate. I've posted about that to Lori. It has been tainted by humans, it cannot be otherwise. Let me just say that if Jesus himself were to appear to me in a dream, I would give him just as much consideration and respect as I have given Goddess and God. I have come to realize that Jesus is just another aspect of Them. So, I believe, is the God you percieve, Tony. All Gods and Goddesses spring from the same source, that source is the "TRUE" diety. It's just too huge, too foreign to us, too complex for us to comprehend. So we find pieces of it we can understand, and personify it as a God, or a Goddess. Jesus-in-the-flesh was just a man (in my opinion), a very good, wise man, but he has become more than that. He is now a symbol, a personification of a God beyond understanding. Maybe I just don't need Jesus himself, perhaps that's why he hasn't visited me personally. I relate better to a nature-bound couple. Just a matter of preference. This is all very odd, it's pretty much the last thing I would have expected to happen to me. I have been rather un-religious in my lifetime until now, and now it's like a giant lightbulb has come on, and I can somehow see the truth in almost ALL religions. They are all the same. That's contradictory to everything each religion says, though. Even most Pagans don't share this idea. But I just feel it, deep inside of me. All religions are trying to describe the same thing. Human interpretation of it is what creates the differences. I think all religions are wrong, and right at the same time. I keep coming back to the blind men and the elephant. You have the trunk, so you think it's a snake. I have the tail, so I think it's a rope. We're both just as right, or rather, just as wrong. But it's the best we can percieve, and it's senseless to argue with eachother about it, or for me to worry that the snake in your hands will bite you, or for you to worry that the rope in my hands will hang me. Does that make any sense? Language fails me, there aren't words for what I percieve. Anyway, best wishes. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Mooncat, Thanks for the reply I only wish I had more time to review it and speak to you in more detail. However maybe its better that I don't. Its apparent you are aware of the spiritual realm, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record I do hold grave concerns for you. I know you don't see it the way I do as a Christian and I don't think talking it through is going to convince you of how serious and I believe valid my fears for you are. The only thing I can do is pray that my Lord Jesus would somehow make known to you the danger you are in. I think that whatever I or Lori or anyone else who is a believer says will only be counter productive and create anamosity between us. Personally I would much rather leave the door open so that when you find the danger then we can help. Until then please be careful, please do not swear any oaths upon yourself or your family. I know it may sound silly but its a dangerous road that you presently walk. Allcare Tony H2o
Funny, I find the best stuff when I'm not looking for it: "Please beware of them that stare They'll only smile to see you while Your time away And once you've seen what they have been To win the earth just won't seem worth Your night or your day Who'll hear what I say? Look around you find the ground Is not so far from where you are But don't turn wise For down below they never grow They're always tired and charms are hired From out of their eyes Never surprise. Take your time and you'll be fine And say a prayer for people there Who live on the floor And if you see what's meant to be Don't name the day or try to say It happened before. Don't be shy you learn to fly And see the sun when day is done If only you see Just what you are beneath a star That came to stay one rainy day In autumn for free Yes, be what you'll be. Please beware of them that stare They'll only smile to see you while Your time away And once you've seen what they have been To win the earth just won't seem worth Your night or your day Who'll hear what I say. Open up the broken cup Let goodly sin and sunshine in Yes that's today. And open wide the hymns you hide You find reknown while people frown At things that you say But say what you'll say About the farmers and the fun And the things behind the sun And the people round your head Who say everything's been said And the movement in your brain Sends you out into the rain." This is a song titled "Things behind the sun" by Nick Drake, written in '67 or '68, I have it on his "Pink Moon" album. Beautiful folk-style song. I posted it because it seems somewhat relevant to this thread - it has some of the same flavor of what the Goddess has been trying to tell me. I doubt Nick wrote it for the pagan perspective, but it seems to fit nonetheless. Comments, anyone? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
