god is a man

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by jerry seinfeld, Sep 3, 1999.

  1. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    As individuals, our physical future WILL END. It might end tomorrow, a year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 50 years from now or, in the case of some individuals, 100 years from now. The fact is, OUR INDIVIDUAL, PHYSICAL FUTURE WILL CEASE TO EXIST at some point. Even for those who do not "believe" in the spirit or the soul of the individual, OUR SPIRITUAL LIVES WILL GO ON ETERNALLY. Whether or not we spend our spiritual eternity with God or without God is our decision to make, with our free will, while we are here, in this world, in our temporary, physical state.

    Whether or not the temporary, physical future is of the Star-Trek or Blade-Runner type is irrelevant with respect to an individual's spiritual future. As individuals, we really should be concerning ourselves with the REAL FUTURE, the everlasting future, the future that really counts... The future of our souls. It is not going to end as the physical life does.

    To those who are feeling scared or bad about their future, I say this... By developing a personal relationship with God, you will not only feel good, you will feel GREAT about your immortal future, regardless of how the physical one ends!

    I PROMISE!

    I understand that there are those who do not understand and/or believe in the concept of the soul. That is a fact that I am willing to accept without debate. We all have had our experiences (or lack thereof) which bring us to our beliefs in this world. For those who have not yet witnessed the truth, I hope that you have a revelation soon so that you can prepare for your eternal salvation before it is too late.
     
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  3. Plato Registered Senior Member

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    truestory,

    If you believe you have seen your dead mother floating around in the kitchen and that your husband was possessed by the devil then I guess there is not much for me to say to you. I would be lying if I said I envy your firm believes, I just like to doubt things to much !
    Still it must be really comforting to wake up each day in the absolute certainty that you are safe for the rest of eternity. Your entire world of people you know or have known will be preserved for all of eternity. Tell me, have you ever wondered what you will do with that infinite amount of time ?

    In the anunnaki topic you say the following in relation to the sceptics on this board:
    You see that is the main difference between you and me. It seems you managed to completly disregard the past 500 years of philosophical and scientific discoveries. What you proclaim here is the medieval authoritive philosophy of the scholastici. You think that a modern mind works the same way but it doesn't, we don't just believe what mainstream scientists say on the contrary, we are eager for new discoveries that would turn our current paradigmas upside down.
    I suggest you begin by reading Descartes because he is considered the first modern philosopher. Even though he is dead for 350 years his ideas might already seem as dangerously provocative to you, so read it with caution.
    If you don't want to bother this is what he proposed as a startingpoint for everything that one experiences or hears or reads : doubt everything !

    ------------------
    "If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
    Isaac Newton

    [This message has been edited by Plato (edited October 06, 1999).]
     
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  5. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Quite frankly, with the "spin" you put on things, I would prefer that you not say anything to me or attempt to paraphrase me. You are entitled to your opinions but, you know what they say... Opinions are like assholes... everyone's got one... your's just happens to stink! (Particularly since you cannot even base your opinions on the facts, which are printed elsewhere on this board and available for your review).

    For example, the fact is that my mother's spirit manifested itself in a way that I could see her. I never said that my "dead mother was floating around the kitchen" (although the scenario which you MADE UP in your head probably fits well into your science-fiction mentality).

    Additionally, I never indicated that my husband was posessed by the devil. Did you simply make that one up for "special effect"... Or, is it nothing more than another figment of YOUR imagination?!

    I do not proclaim any philosophy. I proclaim what I have learned from my own, individual experience.

    I can understand your skepticism about things which you don't understand because you have not yet experienced them. However, I do not understand why you come to this site if you are not interested in learning about the experiences of others. Perhaps you are just a scared little kid who really doesn't want to know... You feel "safe" in the narrow and rigid bosom of mainstream scientific thinking and are conditioned to ridicule that which you do not understand.

    Try and look at it this way... Consider yourself turned upside-down.

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 06, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 06, 1999).]
     
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  7. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    O.K. Let's review... doubt everything... doubt everything!!!

    1) I "see" my mother's spirit. I doubt it. I "hear" my mother's spirit give me a message which I don't understand so, I doubt it. I doubt that this whole "experience" ever happened!!! So, I don't deliver the message to my relative and my relative ends up spending the rest of their life secretly torturing themselves emotionally with guilt. So, what's the big deal? At least I did what I was told by a philosopher who lived over 350 years ago... I doubted. I'm a good skeptic!

    2) I'm looking for my missing child and I "hear" the voice of an unknown spirit telling me where she is but, I doubt it. So, I don't go there looking for my child and I don't "see" the light which further guides me to my child's location because I doubt that what I just "experienced" actually happened and my child never gets found. So, what's the big deal? At least I did what I was told by a philosopher who lived over 350 years ago... I doubted. I'm such a good skeptic!

    3) Hmmm... I am "experiencing" this feeling, "hearing" an inner-voice which is telling me not to let my teenager get in the car with their friend at this particular time, on this particular day. I doubt it. The feeling which I am "experiencing" is irrational so, I doubt it. My teenager's request is reasonable. My "inner-voice" makes no sense whatsoever and I have no concrete evidence to support my position, so, I really doubt it and give my teenager permission to ride in the car. My teenager is involved in the fatal head-on collision. So, what's the big deal? At least I did what I was told by a philosopher who lived more than 350 years ago... I doubted. Yes, I must say, I am one of the best skeptics that ever lived!!!

    I doubt it... I think, instead, that I'll believe.

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 06, 1999).]
     
  8. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    1,065
    TS,

    It was me with the possessed husband.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Did you read the link I put under "READ THIS"? I would very, very much like to hear your thoughts about this. I know it's a really long link to read, but it's soooooo important. Please read it when you can and post your comments. Thanks very much!

    ------------------
    God loves you and so do I!
     
  9. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    These darned believers... They're all startin' to look the same, huh?!
     
  10. Just because a philospher says so, doesn't make them an authority. 500 years or 5000 years does not matter. Every person who accepts a world-view, 'knows' it is true. They live by its precepts & socialize among its believers. But a thousand philosophies cann't be right? Which do you pick? Which do you believe? Read them all? Go ahead, but will you be that much better off? We live by what we believe is true & logic has nothing to do with it. Its ultimatly what we 'believe' that matters. Because that will be how we 'see' the world around us & how we interpret what we see. And at least in this physical world, we are governed by our senses
    first, then by our mind, so whether we believe in an afterlife or not, its hard to be certain what is the truth, when there are so many truths out there!
     
  11. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    1,052
    First of all, Descartes shouldn't just be believed because he is a famous scientist. Plato's point, I believe, was indeed to encourage you to read and judge for yourself. It's not about authority, get it through your narrow minds! It's about how good the argument is!

    truestory,

    You have had an NDE, you have seen and heard ghosts, you have experienced poltergeist, you have expperienced diverse psychic phenomena and premonitions. Any one of these experiences is considered to be a rare thing. Very few people in the world claim to actually have had even one such experience. And you claim to have had them all! I don't know how convinced <u>you</u> may be, but to me all this sounds like too much "luck" for one person! Call me a skeptic...

    ------------------
    I am; therefore I think.
     
  12. Plato Registered Senior Member

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    366
    truestory, Lori

    I'm sorry about the mixup with the possessed husband, it just shows that I am merly human and certainly no expert or authority figure !

    truestory,

    First of all I said to BEGIN with Descartes, he is certainly no end point ! You can then go on for example to Hume and Kant, they are two exponents of the age of enlightenment. What they are trying to do is struggle away from the authority of the church and the phylosophers of the middleages.
    You see the big difference between a medieval thinker and a modern thinker is their starting point. A medieval thinker will always refer to the bible or some ancient philosopher to base his reasoning on, a modern thinker will do no such thing. He will look at the universe himself or through other people who have done reliable observations. Reliable meaning verified by other independent people.
    The medieval cosmology for example had two basic features : Everything had his order in the cosmos, the world might seem disorderly to us at times but that is only an illusion. On the larger scales absolute order ruled ! This order was vested by and in God and was there till the day of reckoning where it would be replaced by a different order that would hold for all of eternity. (sounds familiar ?) Everything had a purpose and had his place in this grant scheme. All the big questions were solved at that time : everything simply existed for the honor and glory of God.
    Two revolutions in the natural sciences however shattered this view : the first was the Copernian heliocentrism, the second was the Origin of Species by Darwin.
    Now of course are people not going to give up their treasured believes, their whole view on the world without a fight. The human spirit is very tangible but at the same time very reluctant against change.
    It lasted more then 200 years before the churche for example ultimatly accepted the fact that the earth was orbiting the sun in stead of the other way around. The Darwinian notion of evolution also took well over 100 years but there are still a lot of churches or individuals who like to question this notion. In a perverse twist these people like to use the same argument of doubt that lead to the two revolutions in the first place. This would be a good thing but only if they went all the way and also questioned their own believes. The only thing that they are doing is simply returning to the old notion of trusting authorities like the bible.
    So you see that this modern thinking is a two way cutting sword, it takes a mature and daring mind to wheel it with care.

    ------------------
    "If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
    Isaac Newton
     
  13. Plato Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    366
    truestory,

    you might claim that you don't adhere a philosophy that you simply take your own experiences as a base for your life. But that is impossible for the simple reason that all those phylosophies are imbedded in our lives. We don't recognize them as such because we haven't studied their originators but we are living according to them. One thing that they do is bias our so called experiences !
    Suppose you have a man who firmly believes he is protected all the time by some kind of gardian angel. He walks along the street, it is very windy and suddenly a tile from a roof falls right next to him. He will thank his gardian angel and do a double prair that evening before going to bed.
    On other guy who believes his mind is capable of radiating a protective field that protects him from any harm has the same experience. He will be very thankfull also to the all encompassing energy and will meditate twice as hard to recharge his body that evening.
    Again an other guy who doesn't believe anything at all walks the same path. He will shrug and call himself lucky, that evening he might reflect upon the fragility of life and how it can end any second.
    All these people have had the same things happening to them but they all had a different experience and were confirmed in their previous views.
    What was the true experience ?
     
  14. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Hah! Boris,

    You ain't heard nothin' yet! I don't think that my experiences are so rare. It's probably more a matter that I am willing to share them without being succumbed to or hushed by the likes of you!

    Here's the real deal as I see it: Some people are capable of bearing children while others are not (or choose not to). Those who have never had the experience of child-birth cannot even begin to truly comprehend the experience. Likewise, some people are capable of recognizing and experiencing the paranormal (phenomena which can not yet be explained scientifically) while others are not (or choose not to). Those who have never had a paranormal experience cannot even begin to truly comprehend the experience.


    Plato,

    Like you, I am well aware of the biases which can influence us, however, I am not going to waste my time debating what I consider to be a mundane and irrelevant example.

    Now, if two of the three individuals WERE hit by the falling tile and the third was spared because he heard an audible voice of a spirit which told him to "Get out of the way!" and he heeded the warning and jumped out of the way, then we might have something relevant to my experiences to discuss.

    P.S.

    Believe it or not, there are "modern" thinkers who have gone so far as to question their own beliefs and, in the final analysis (thus far), they have come to a different conclusion than you have. That certainly does not make them "medieval" thinkers.

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 07, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 07, 1999).]
     
  15. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    The Privileges of Discipleship

    Turning to the disciples in private he said, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I say to you, many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it."
     
  16. Plato Registered Senior Member

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    366
    truestory,

    You say :
    That is just childish ! By saying this you put yourself on an ivory tower where you can look down upon us poor normals who never had a paranormal experience ! You do realise that this self proclaimed isolation leans dangerously close to actual madness. I'm not saying that you are a loonetic but excluding oneself from the rest of society certainly is not a good example of H-U-M-I-L-I-T-Y !
     
  17. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Plato,

    The premise of your attempt to censure me is based on the false assumption that I am the only one in society who has ever had these spiritual (paranormal) experiences. Sorry, but that is simply not the case. Both procreation and sprirituality are very much a part of human nature. The simple fact is that there are some who have had such experiences and others who have not. Just as we individual human beings are all very much the same, so do we differ in our individual experiences. These differences are also very much a part of human nature.

    On the subject of humility and greatness, Jesus said:

    "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me."

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 08, 1999).]
     
  18. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

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    truestory -
    The premise of your attempt to censure plato is based on the false assumption that *anyone* has these so-called paranormal experiences. It is a fact in no way, shape, or form that people have had communcation from spirits, angels, or ghosts. Just because you think something divine may have influenced you does not mean it actually happened. The human mind is a strong tool, but only if it is used correctly. It seems to me that it requires a distinct arrogance and lack of humility to say with conviction that one's existance goes beyond one's biological end. Remember that skepticism is a tool, not a weapon. It can prevent you from coming to conclusions prematurely, but it absolutely cannot harm true facts.

    FyreStar

    "In all affairs - love, religion, politics, or business - it's a healthy idea to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted" - Bertrand Russell


    [This message has been edited by FyreStar (edited October 08, 1999).]
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,882
    FyreStar--

    How can you assert any "fact" as regards such things as we cannot explain? Specifically, you wrote: "It is a fact in no way, shape, or form that people have had communication from spirits, angels, or ghosts."

    If you try to support that statement on "lack of definitive evidence to the opposite" then I would remind you that:

    * the world was flat until recently
    * your skin color reduces you to 60% of a human being
    * marijuana is a greater threat to society than heroin, and more dangerous to the user
    * the universe revolved around the earth.

    Now even I laugh when I hear about the Virgin Mary appearing in the woodgrain of a door, the reflection of a lamp, or the iridescent coating on the back of a highway sign. But to say definitively that the Virgin doesn't appear on the planet from time to time is as dumb as blind faith in God. How many square feet of the earth have you not observed? How many passing seconds of your own life are not committed to memory? Now, how can you possibly assert that the limits of your life have shown you all that is possible in the universe? I guarantee you that, of your life experiences, you've only noticed about two percent of them.

    Show me the fact. I'll be more than surprised.

    --Tiassa

    ------------------
    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  20. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    1,052
    truestory,

    There are a few rather obvious problems with your stance (namely, that not spiritually-inclined people do not perceive paranormal phenomena.)

    First of all, some of the phenomena you mention (like poltergeist) involve tangible objects flying or moving around. No matter how spiritually imperceptive, one cannot deny a visual, auditory and subsequent physical record of the activity.

    But more importantly, consider the circularity of your argument. You are convinced of your beliefs because of the spiritual "evidence" -- however, you couldn't perceive that very same evidence had you not been convinced in your beliefs in the first place! So obviously, you must have become a convinced Christian <u>prior</u> to any paranormal experiences. Which makes this kind of perceived evidence irrelevant to justification of your faith.

    The point is, you had the Bible, and you had the historical record. That was all you had before you decided that there was enough evidence to choose your particular faith over the thousands of others in existence, and over infinity of others possible. So, in that light, just how justified do you think your choice was?

    As Tiassa mentioned elsewhere, the faithful tend to see miracles everywhere, from highway signs to wood cross-sections. What does that tell us about the perceived "miracles"? I would suggest that in this case, the truth is less in the eye of the beholder than in their mindset. If you are predisposed to find evidence of miracles and dismiss counterevidence, then perhaps miracles is what you will end up with. If you start out with a clean slate and are not predisposed to immediately assign interpretations, or block out information contrary to your predispositions -- then you are likely to arrive at some very different conclusions.

    How many other people in the world have experienced the paranormal? Good question, but I've got an even better one. How many people in the world who experienced the paranormal did not already believe in some sort of a spiritual facet to reality?

    ------------------
    I am; therefore I think.
     
  21. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Boris,

    To be brief, for now, it might interest you to know that I did not read a Bible until I was well into adulthood... After I already had experienced some of what has been termed here as "paranormal".
     
  22. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    FyreStar,

    I will pose a question which I recently posed to you in another thread... Please define "to know" if you would not mind.
     
  23. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Boris,

    You emphasize one of the points which I have made throughout my discussion! That is, from what I have experienced, there is definitely physical evidence of the existence of the spirit. You are exactly right! When objects are observed to move (by the spirit) or an audible voice (of a spirit) can be heard through reverberation of a human eardrum, there is definitely something physical going on. For you, the difficulty lies in the documention of these types of experiences. In the grand scheme of things, yes, these experiences are few and far between for an individual such as myself. I have never solicited such an experience (except for the time that I called out, "Oh, God, where is she?!!!" when my daughter was missing and, as I explained, I was truly shocked to get an answer!). I certainly do not sit around waiting for one of these experiences to happen. They just do. Without exception, these types of experiences have been very unexpected and they end as suddenly as they begin. So, other than to record the experience in writing after the fact, there probably is no way of "recording" them to the satisfaction of individuals such as yourself. Sorry, I truly wish that there was a way. If you do have such an individual experience in the future, please let me know if you were able to record it and how you managed to do it. Thanks.

    P.S.

    I don't know where you got the idea that I took a stance that non-spiritually inclined individuals could not perceive paranormal phenomena... But since you did get that idea, I would like to inform you that... that is not my stance.

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 08, 1999).]
     

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