truestory, Sorry about misinterpreting your stance... But what else could I have concluded from this passage: So now I would have to ask you: what led you to interpret your paranormal experiences specifically within a Christian framework? And while we are at it, what made you trust your senses more than your common sense, when you first experienced something strange? (seeing, as it seems, that you were not religious at the start?) ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
Boris-- I, too, have witnessed the paranormal. I, too, have witnessed the paranormal which coincides with the limits of the faith I held at the time. But I also knew when my mind was screwing with me. Paranormal? There's a few things left I can't explain, but that, in itself, is absolutely normal. Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
tiassa - You misread my post. You should know that you can't prove a negative. I was replying to truestory, who stated that it was a fact that such "paranormal" experiences occured. I stated that it was not a fact due to lack of evidence. Your other revelations were similarly trivial and unworthy of a response in this forum. truestory - I have defined "to know" in the topic I began.
FyreStar-- You make me smile. I did not misread your post. Now, if you and I both know that "you can't prove a negative, then why did you make such a statement? For any reason? You wrote: "It is a fact in no way, shape, or form that people have had communcation from spirits, angels, or ghosts." Okay, now, let me read this again .... It is a fact ... yadda-yadda-yadda .... nope, my opinion of the sentence hasn't changed. So if you and I both know this sentence cannot be proven, why are you standing on it? Oh ... wait a minute ... if I rearrange your words into a different order, I think I can read the sentence you're claiming to have written. Oh, forgive me for being so trivial as to read the words you wrote in order. Like I say, Flamey, you make me smile. Tiassa PS--By the way, it bugs me when I have to read your mind. Because I'm quite sure I cannot. I will continue to read your words as you write them. Don't give me license to start twisting around the words based on their order. ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
tiassa - You make me roll my eyes and sigh. Your emotions are obviously clouding your judgement in this debate. If you truly cannot understand that sentence, then you should not bother responding to it. Since you are having such extreme trouble, I will attempt to spell it out for you in words of few syllables. It is not a fact. There is no evidence. Better? If that isn't enough, I'll do a little dissection of what I wrote to furthur explain it. Your problem in reading is that you are applying "It is a fact" to the rest of the sentence, ignoring the negative operating on it. "It is a fact in no way, shape, or form" means; "it is not a fact". Consider this example: It is a fact that the earth is round. This can be reduced to "The earth is round." If we attempt to do what you are doing, then you are reducing my statement to "in no way shape or form that people.." That is incorrect sentence structure, so even if you couldn't immediately discern my meaning, the grammer should have tipped you off. FyreStar And please spare me from your Oh-so-deadly wit.
Okay, FyreStar, if you'll be so kind ... The following sentence, the one of debate, is one you wrote: "It is a fact in no way, shape, or form, that people have had communication from spirits, angels, or ghosts." Shall we look at it as my first reply to you on this did: Does the sentence mean: "It is in no way, shape, or form, a fact that ..." or "It is a fact that in no way, shape, or form." The first is what you say you intended. I replied to the second interpretation. So if you don't want "trivial and unworthy" responses, please please please write what you mean. Seriously, I can't read your mind. You do not want me rearranging the words to see how they make sense. Elsewise it all might become trivial and unworthy. My wit is no more deadly than your grammar. Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
tiassa - Since you refuse to believe me, question a language professor. Either way, it is unimportant now that you understand what I stated. Regards, FyreStar [This message has been edited by FyreStar (edited October 10, 1999).]
Fyrestar, There is evidence, you just havent' experienced it for yourself. Don't be so arrogant to assume that just because Jesus hasn't slapped you across the face that he doesn't exist, or hasn't touched other's lives. Honestly, I think that a lot of the stuff that tiassa and TS are talking about are the works of Satan. You guys need to be a testin' your spirits if you get my drift. Don't assume that just because something is supernatural, that it is good. One time when I was younger, I grew my fingers to almost 1.5 times their normal length by willing them to do so. Ok fire-boy, argue that one.... ------------------ God loves you and so do I!
Lori - It is interesting that you speak of arrogance when you condemn others for not seeing your own contrived "evidence". Just because you believe in something does not mean it exists. As to your fingers.. I don't suppose you'd be willing to demonstrate for me sometime...? FyreStar
Boris, You wrote: "truestory, Sorry about misinterpreting your stance... But what else could I have concluded from this passage: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's the real deal as I see it: Some people are capable of bearing children while others are not (or choose not to). Those who have never had the experience of child-birth cannot even begin to truly comprehend the experience. Likewise, some people are capable of recognizing and experiencing the paranormal (phenomena which can not yet be explained scientifically) while others are not (or choose not to). Those who have never had a paranormal experience cannot even begin to truly comprehend the experience." -------------------------------------------- In my opinion, Boris, you could have concluded a number of things from the passage. However, since there was no mention of the "spiritually inclined" or "non-spiritually inclined" I truly can't see how that is the ONLY thing you could have concluded. As a matter of fact, since the ability to experience child-birth (to which the ability to experience the paranormal was compared) is due to a physical difference, you could have concluded that I meant that there was a physical reason for the ability or non-ability to experience the paranormal... that is just one option. Your conclusion was another, but it was probably biased. (And I don't mean that in a negative sense). The point was that, as individuals, we have differences in our abilities to experience various aspects of our existence and unlessss we actually experience something, we cannot truly comprehend the experience. I will continue with my answers to your other questions from the same post later... ------------------ Have a great day! [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 11, 1999).]
FyreStar: Okay ... I suppose I can waste my time and go find a grammar professor. While I'm at it I'll run it by six or seven novelists and ask them how big their editors' eyes would get at a sentence like that. So, who's yours? It would be much more worth my time if I knew what wealth of academia I was up against here. After all, if I go to a grammar or writing professor and say, "I'm confused ... so-and-so at this university says this ... I don't get the approach," I'm more likely to get an answer than, "Here, somebody who can't type insists I should read his mind." Yes, we now agree what you mean. However, if it takes you this long to state it, then I urge you to make one of the following considerations: * Write what you mean, unequivocally. * Slow down, don't make typos. * Proofread at least once. Because in order to interpret your sentence as you claim, I still have to add punctuation or rearrange the order of the words to make it equal your intentions. I'll even take a book citation from you. But since you've asked for my academic verification, I need one from you. It's your sentence, it's your problem, and it's your time. And if you don't want that time wasted by "trivial" crap, then don't write ambiguous sentences and then bait people. Write what you mean, else you mean nothing. Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
tiassa - *I did. *I didn't. *I do. It is a fact in no way, shape, or form that the sun is a cube. It is a fact in no way or form that the sun is a cube. It is a fact in no way that the sun is a cube. "In no way that the sun is a cube." is not a correct sentence, therefore your interpretation is flat out wrong. However, "The sun is a cube." is correct in the grammatical sense, therefore "In no way, shape, or form" (which means IT IS NOT A FACT) is the modifier. Take that to whatever professor or editor you wish. Does this make it easier? My problem? You are the ego driven maniac that feels compelled to find fault in his enemies even where no faults occur. Let us recapitulate; I posted, you misread, you attacked, I corrected, you ignored, I corrected...ad nauseum. As you might tell, I'm getting frustrated with your petty, incorrect arguments and witless banter. Henceforth, you may proceed on the assumption that absolutely nothing I post is directed to you. Sincerely, FyreStar Have a nice day.
Boris, to continue... you asked: "And while we are at it, what made you trust your senses more than your common sense, when you first experienced something strange? (seeing, as it seems, that you were not religious at the start?)" ----------------------------------------- It wasn't really a matter of trusting my senses over common sense when I first experienced something strange. Rather, it went like this: I was a teenager, attending high school and I was working part-time as a cashier in a neighborhood grocery store. After I was employed for about a year, I went to work one Saturday afternoon in the summer and when I arrived, as usual, I got the keys and the drawer to my assigned register. I locked my purse in the cabinet below the register, counted my starting cash and began my shift. After four hours with no break, it was the end of my shift and time to close. I looked outside for my boyfriend who was supposed to be meeting me after work but, he was not there. What? He was always on time, but, no biggie. I was sure he would be there soon. I also noticed that a friend of the co-worker was in the store at closing time. What? None of us were allowed to have friends in the store at closing time. My boyfriend and the brother of another co-worker always had to wait for us outside. How come this guy's friend was allowed to be inside? I considered bringing this up with my manager later. In the meantime, I reconciled my cash drawer and unlocked the cabinet underneath my register but... nothing was there... My purse was missing. I was very upset, of course, and yelled out that my purse was gone. Let me back-up a little now, if I may... The store was at the bottom of, and facing, the foot of a one-half mile long steep hill (the foot of the hill was approximately twenty-five feet in front of the store). The main store-front was made up of a brick sill, approximately two feet high and thirty feet long with thirty feet of glass panels which were about eight feet in height, set atop the brick sill. There were two alcoves on either side of the window front, about ten to twelve feet in length. One was used to store overstock and the other was used to store deposit bottles which were returned by customers. The total length of the store-front was about fifty to fifty-four feet. This is what transpired in the next few seconds after I realized that my purse was gone: (Due to the slow time of the year and the lateness of the hour, there were only four employees working at the time and there was the one person who was waiting for a co-worker inside the store). My co-worker, who was acting as assistant manager (and whose friend was waiting inside the store) walked towards the front of the store between two cash registers and was asking me what was the matter... The acting store manager, who was also walking towards the front of the store to unlock the front (glass) door, heard what I said and stopped to talk with me... The stock-clerk asked in a loud voice, "Is that it?" We all turned to look and there was my dark purse, sitting conspicuously out in the middle of a shelf in the obscure overstock alcove, amongst the extra cases of white paper towels. "What the....???" I walked out from behind my register, about ten or fifteen feet towards where my purse was and it happened... A loud bang, and then a second bang which sounded like an explosion. I turned to look and there, in slow-motion it seemed, I saw the front of a car (a kaki green station wagon), airborne, propelling itself through the glass store-front and into the store. It was about five or six feet off the ground. It did a nose-dive after coming through the window and hit the register which I had been standing at, driving it about eight feet back into the aisle and crushing it so violently that it left about one-half inch of space where I would normnally have been standing, had I not left to get my missing purse. At the same time, I could see my co-worker's body, face-up, and falling backwards onto the ground underneath the front of the nose-diving station wagon. His body was being riddled with hundreds of glass fragments. However, he was not being crushed... The friend who had been allowed to stay inside the store that night had caught him from behind and had a hold of him by his armpits and was dragging my co-worker with all his strength and speed so as to prevent my co-worker's body from being crushed... It worked. Although he was severely torn up by the glass, his injuries were not life-threatening. After all the noise and commotion, there was a couple of seconds of stillness and silence, during which time, I looked again for my boyfriend... this time, under the wreckage which the station wagon had left because the car which he normally would have been leaning on was out front, as usual, but, this day, it had its top cut-off. Again, I did not see him. Then there was more commotion... The unconscious boys in the station wagon came to and hopped out of the wrecked vehicle. They were covered with blood but in a panic to run away because, as we later learned, they had stolen the car which belonged to one boy's father. It had been up on blocks because the father was working on the brakes at the time the teenagers took it for a "joy ride". As it turns out, almost everything could be explained by common sense... My boyfriend was not there, leaning on a car right outside the store-front, because a friend of his was hurt at an early-evening party and had to be taken to the hospital... A fortunate coincidence. My co-worker's friend being allowed to stay when noone else was ever allowed to was simply a coincidental exception to the rules... My manager stopping to talk with me about my missing purse, rather than walking to unlock the glass door of the store-front, was surely a timely coincidence... However, noone was ever able to explain how my purse got out from the locked cabinet (which was under my cash register which I had not left for the duration of my shift and which noone else had access to) and how it was placed in a conspicuous manner, in an overstock alcove beyond the danger of the glass store-front. As strange as it seems, this was an instance when a physical object was physically moved from one locations and relocated to another physical location without any human intervention. So, Boris... Although it made no common sense, it did cause me to act (to walk away from the cash register to retrieve my purse). As a result, it enabled me to avoid being crushed by the runaway car. That was the first, for me. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 11, 1999).]
FyreStar-- Ok. I can ignore you. However, I'm still amused at your approach to grammar. Snip-snip-snip. Make sure those scissors are sharp. Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
truestory, That's a pretty cool story (supposing it's 'true', j/k). Ever considered the possibility that you got distracted and forgot to lock in your purse that day, and some customer later found it on the floor or something and placed it in a conspicuous place so whoever lost it could find it? Alternatively, it could've been a prank. ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
Boris, All things considered, it seems that all I can say to you about the doubt is, "You had to be there." In other words, you had to have experienced the event in order to truly comprehend it. Even then, as a non-spiritually inclined teenager, I knew that the series of events, their causes and effect (and the resulting safety of the individuals who would otherwise have been seriously or fatally injured that night) went beyond the range of normal experience or scientifically explainable phenomena. Lori will like this... To everyone who was there that night, the "why" things happened the way they did was very apparent. Most elusive was the "how". [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 12, 1999).]
Truestory, I'm guessing that this is what led you to find God or helped you make your decision? I've heard similar stories of objects doing impossible things. This person who had the experiences is really into meditation and experimenting with psychic abilities. He attributes them to subconscious brain energy and from what I can tell isn't religious. So, I'm just suggesting that what happened that day could have a more human explanation.
Hello JMitch, Actually, the event I described above happened about twenty-five years before I truly found God. Personally, I don't meditate or experiment within the psychic realm. The event described above is one of a number of such experiences which I have had in my lifetime. My experiences just happen, without warning.
