# God is an impossible object.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Ted Grant II, Dec 6, 2016.

1. ### NewbiephilosopherRegistered Member

Messages:
22
Worship is a feeling of reverence and adoration for a deity. Many worship God because he is God; The holy one who flows throughout reality. Many worship because God supposedly responds to the worship, God gave form to creation and loved it first.

Jesus says God is spirit and truth and we should worship God in spirit and truth. God is here to stay.

3. ### NewbiephilosopherRegistered Member

Messages:
22
I sort of got off the topic a little with all this talk about the gods and what humans have taught each other as being a proper understanding of what a god is or should be. As another fiction for the books lets just say that God lives in another dimension and communicates with this dimension through string theory. Any description of God or how he exists would be a fairy tale. But I am not saying he doesn't exist (because that would be a sin against the holy spirit) but I am saying that humans have no clue as to what god is and will never fathom what the spirit is like until the time of departure. Then it will no longer be possible to covey understanding to another. For a god to exist I believe he would have to have a superior form that we humans couldn't probably begin to grasp.

5. ### OphioliteValued Senior Member

Messages:
9,232
I think in your well reasoned post you have inadvertently given undue weight to Newbiephilosopher's rather sophomoric self-indulgent reflections. Then again, perhaps Easter has come early.

7. ### NewbiephilosopherRegistered Member

Messages:
22
Yeah sure I must admit I have been indulging myself a little but I'd like to keep in mind that God may not be impossible. People have been touched by some experience that they can only attribute to God and I believe they believe it. I'm not one for bursting bubbles but I also believe that this belief in God needs some upgrades.

8. ### OphioliteValued Senior Member

Messages:
9,232
Yes, but with as much respect as I can muster, if you are going to say something so bloody obvious to millions of people you really need to bring some fresh perspective, else you are just farting in a lift.

9. ### NewbiephilosopherRegistered Member

Messages:
22
Sorry to have bored you but most of the people I have any kind of association with concerning religion are Jesus fanatics and just cannot understand something so bloody obvious. My apologies. , but I've had to keep my own experiences to myself so long I am not fully aware of how many people are knowledgeable with the ideas of God. Trying to understand the certainty of God I believe cannot be accomplished with reading the bible. The sin of Adam and Eve, the foundation of all the bible teaches is ridiculous. Teaching ourselves that the self awareness/awakening of Adam and Eve was a sin against God is destroying the human spirit. Awakening is actually as if God (or the universe) breathed wisdom into the spirit and all understanding was revealed. Awakening is actually part of the process of knowing or experiencing God. So how could this be a sin?

I believe the bible is no more than a conspiracy by the ancient rulers to put a choke hold on humanity; Is this also common knowledge? If you want to know God you can't find him in the bible. Start by teaching yourself that God is something that humans are least able to understand and let life lead you. I myself have experienced that knowing God may not be impossible but also not guaranteed. I may be delusional.

10. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

Messages:
2,919
Hold that thought.
Why cling to a notion of God and get involved in this religion is right or wrong etc etc.
Become an atheist and clear your head and start dealing with real things in the real world.
Searching for something that is not there suggests you will waste a lot of time with no result.
Alex

11. ### stretcheda junkie's broken promiseValued Senior Member

Messages:
1,244
Not sure if I am getting your view right, but IMO becoming an "Atheist" prescribes similar limitations to real things in the real world as becoming a "Christian" or "insert other religion/cult here" via the limitation that both these worldviews close one off to possibilities.

For some, real things in the real world involve intense mystical/cathartic/epiphany experiences that are as substantial & real and "there" as the chair one sits on. Much of nature is hidden from our everyday senses, like subatomic particles and inaudible audio frequencies. These are also real things yet way less apparent. So it is too with religious or spiritual experiences.

I am not sure what there is to gain from excluding such possibilities? I suppose it can depend on what one considers G_d to be, but for sure, limiting "G_d" to the stereotypical portrayal in the major world religions is a dead end.

12. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

Messages:
2,919
Mmmm fortunately I am not in that group.
I suspect it all started for those folk when their parents would not let them have imaginary friends.
I agree however both things you mention can be established as real we see a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum but can prove its extent.
So we are on the same page.
Well no.
You miss the bit about what we can establish as real.

So how can you establish these experiences as something real in the manner you hint at and not something real in what I would suggest in the realm of delusional.

Made up stuff is not real and there is no way around that inconvenient fact.
Sub atomic particles are real and we can't see them but can reliably establish they exist.
God is not real and we can't see or establish a contrary position.
There is a difference.
I am sure the gain is knowing one is living within a definable reality.

You could decide to not get tied up in brands and simply reject the notion of God even if you can only refer as G d.
Alex

13. ### stretcheda junkie's broken promiseValued Senior Member

Messages:
1,244
He he. Those friends sure where fun.

And then we can hypothesize to the point of string theory & infinite Multiverses... where a small leap of faith and a pile of mathematical expertise is required.

So what is real, what is made up and what is delusional? Is "Consciousness" made up? Its only as real as one can imagine. Is "Imagination" a product of consciousness or visa versa? The physical brain seems to be the generator of "consciousness" which is not physical, visible nor "real" in the traditional sense. I cant pick it up or bump into it. Furthermore, can we even say that "consciousness" is not a delusion. Yet here we are.

Again, not real. Quarks, the Lego blocks of all that is are detected via inference only. Amazingly if we can establish the top quark mass and find it lower than expected, it opens the door to a Boltzmann Brain and self-aware entities that literally pop out of nowhere. In a nutshell, "real" entities from nowhere. Unreal.

Contrary to popular belief, and given that we struggle to define "reality", we just don`t know that for a fact.

Why? Besides, if we look to Science and Quantum physics - it clearly indicates that "reality" is very far from definable. On the contrary, it seems "reality" does not even exist until we try to measure it... albeit on the atomic level, but then we and everything around us are made up of atoms.

As a scientist one cannot reject that (the conecpt of G-d) which has enough smoke to probe further, especially if one is exposed to endless mysteries & paradoxes that stimulate and titillate.

Thanks for the response, for clarity - my concept of G-d does not fit into any theological category and the spelling thereof is merely a reflection and respect of my blood.

14. ### NewbiephilosopherRegistered Member

Messages:
22
Why search for God? Maybe because I have all the time in the world to try and answer the question for myself. But the main reason is because almost 30 years ago I was going through some struggles and I had an experience that God sought me out. I was not a bible fanatic but I believe I was a good person and the experience really sent me for a loop. God was something I heard about in school but I never believed you could have an encounter with him, so here I am now trying to understand if it I had a hallucinating dream or are such things are possible?

15. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

Messages:
2,919
I once thought God was talking to me although without words just feelings, and it confused me for a while but fortunately I still had enough sanity left to tell me the stressful situation I was experiencing was most probably the best explanation.

The direction the "feeling" would have taken me was clearly wrong but at the time my confused state had me believing it was a good idea but it was not.

However the experience was most extrodinary and at least let me understand how delusion could be interpreted as God.

And of course if I went with the feeling I would have convinced myself God was guiding me...I was suffering a delusion generated by stress.

Alex

16. ### birchValued Senior Member

Messages:
3,406
If people worship a concept of a god is either out of fear, gratitude, need, or because they view god as being or having better qualities than them - admiration.

God is considered all knowing and powerful so many look up to it in esteem, that is those who value these qualities the most. Thats why some religious people as in especially fundamentalists have 'god-complexes.' It is peering into their own nature and values as to what concept they have of a god to worship, essentially what they are or would like to be or become. Some would like to have all the power and be a dictator with the world revolving around them; their way or the highway. It makes sense from a primitive predatorial universe/nature but what is interesting is there exist unrelated or opposite qualities in nature that some consider god so what you value or worship can differ drastically from another but in actuality which is god is unknown. Maybe there is more than one and of course it is a pretty obvious tactic to say there is one god if its your chosen one based on power, isnt it? What if the true god was actually not so powerful here but must struggle for the truth, compassion, ethics to be heard or respected etc? Thats not what most think but jesus christ curiously embodied that.

Personally those two qualities (power and knowledge) alone arent valid to worship a deity but perhaps to just obey out of fear which is different than real respect.

If god is perfect (but in what way? just unchanging?), loving, just, honest, ethical etc then worthy of admiration not just fear it can strike you down, punish etc.

People dont worship just because it is a deity. It may be an automatic reflex for some but even behind that is a reason, it just hasnt been broken down or evaluated. Those who do seem to automatically be humbled before the concept of a deity probably stems from the natural instinct of self preservation in dealing with a more powerful being that can make your life worse if you dont cooperate etc. Some probably never even self reflected if they actually do really respect, care, agree or even like said deity etc. Sometimes fear can be confused with agreement even for the one who fears but it is just coercive tactic.

The subject agrees to save its own skin and the one with the upperhand can assume the subject truly agrees and respects because of compliance. If the deity doesnt care about that as long as it can control it should be fine but if its looking for true admiration besides sycophantism, then it could be false.

There are people also like this that dont care as long as they have all the power to control, undermine or damage those under them and thats because they dont identify with them or view them as lesser.

Now, how far can a deity's love or care actually be toward lesser beings or being too different? Realistically i dont think too far. Religion has addressed that as 'made in god's image' but that seems more akin to likeness rather than personal concern similar to how a reptile may have many offspring to mostly fend for themselves and carry on with a similar nature.

If this god's love or goodness is a part of us in some way, then it's just a good quality we possess also to try and further develop but not necessarily that god can or will be physically with us. The christian bible has jesus quoted as saying he will always be with us meaning metaphorically in spirit/nature through our plight/struggles/life here in that we are not completely alone but have that connection to a deity or higher being that created us just like a parent/child scenario.

Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
17. ### Xelasnave.1947Valued Senior Member

Messages:
2,919
I do not include these in my reality.
I acknowledge them as propositions but not necessarily realistic.
What is made up I would suggest is delusional.
Something does not become physically real because we can imagine it.
If you wish to imagine a God that's OK but that act of imagination does not make him exist no matter how much your brain treats his existence as real.
He is not real in my brain.
He is not real like the Sun and the Moon which exist irrespective of our imagination.
In a nutshell No.
I can draw unicorn does not make it exist.
And speculation upon possibility does not make it exist.
If you have evidence of entities piping out of nowhere please present it otherwise please be a little more conservative in your speculation.
I say God does not exist and that is a fact you could prove me wrong but you can't.
I think you rely upon science journalism for your understanding however my statements stands.
You talk about matters of science as offering help to understand reality it is a pity there was not one thread of evidence of God that could provide even an opportunity to speculate about God.
There is nothing and coffee table chats about what is teal and what is not takes us nowhere other than make folk think there could be something to this God stuff when there is not.
I do not care what a scientist does but let me make this clear.
I can reject the notion of God and you can try and prove me wrong with evidence.
You can't do that..your God you prove it...but don't say I can't reject it because I can prove it does not exist.
Imagine if I said I have a unicorn at home, you would reasonably call for proof. And I play coy and say no you have to prove I don't have one...come on we deal with a simple proposition seeking in your idea by complicating things will not work.
I suppose you have your version which can only have come from what you have made up to suit yourself, that does not make your invention exist.
If there is a God there can be one version only you can't order a model to suit your needs and I suggest until God presents such as we can get a clear position of what heir it is and what it expects,if anything, there is no point in just making stuff up.
Alex

18. ### NewbiephilosopherRegistered Member

Messages:
22
I don't believe that Jesus Christ was a God (contrary to what the apostle Paul might say) but Jesus as a man, I do believe that Jesus embodied all those ideals. As I've said God is here to stay so were going to have to deal with it. Believe what you want of God; I think if he does exist he is probably not too concerned with what you believe of him anyway. According to Jesus, God loves you anyway. But I am personally concerned with all these people who try to push their Godly beliefs of love unto you and are hypocrites of all they pretend to represent. We may or may not have to answer to a God but I do expect those godly people to be representative of all those ideals they attribute to God or they're hypocrites and I want nothing more from them. And I believe Jesus offers that so I'm willing to listen and possibly practice some of what he says if I think it would help improve society. Making improvements in society is something I am interested in and I believe that the belief of a higher power more spiritually attuned may be good for society. Something to humble us.

19. ### Anti-stupidityRegistered Member

Messages:
27
Your going to have to prove he exists first for anybody or me to take it seriously. As well as show exactly how does an anthropomorphic relationship with the universe and abstract objects, like god is love or god is the universe or is all there is, will improve society aside from just be a useless age old crap.

20. ### wellwisherBannedBanned

Messages:
5,160
You need to look at how the idea of God has been part of long term human history. For example, say we compare Jesus to any modern celebrity; Brad Pitt, using the assumption both are just men. How many modern celebrities, become almost timeless? Typically the impact of celebrity is strong at first. They appear in a blaze of glory, and then disappear and are only remembered by that one generation, who saw their rise. Somehow, Jesus was able to linger through centuries of changes in times, eras, and cultures and still perpetuate. This timeless element, is why he is attributed to God.

The reason for this difference, appears to be that the most persistent religions reach very deep areas of the human psyche. These areas of the psyche are very conservative and don't change much over time. Contemporary fads and personalities reach only shallow parts of the brain, which are more pliable.

Our human instincts are grounded on human DNA, with DNA changing very slow. People today, deep down, are not much different from people of the past. Modern people can read the wisdom of Solomon, and still find it appropriate to our times, since it talks to our conservative human nature. Religions that persist, reach these deeper aspects the psyche, allowing the region to feel fresh for each generation. Propaganda ministers of fad, realize that reaching these deeper parts of the psyche, is the holy grail, so they can perpetuate sales and power. But they can't seem to reach it.

If you look at secular people like Newton and Einstein, they resonate due down. The reason is they both express truth that is timeless. Truth can also reach those deeper layers of psyche, since truth is part of our survival instinct. Illusions are not needed for survival, but rather can make it harder to adapt. These will be temporary. Instinct will try to neutralize this, requiring an overcompensation by the ego, which is the fuel of the fad. But eventually, instinct has the final day; forget.

21. ### CounterRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
300
It's almost as if he existed before us...

Messages:
21,225
That is easy, and has been answered before. In a nut shell the mythical idea of a god developed due to our collective ignorance. Ancient man saw go in the Sun, the Moon, rivers, mountains, volcanoes etc, simply because we were unaware of the physics and science behind them.
Consequently it has been shown, the more we learn, the more knowledge we obtain of the universe around us and its methodology, the less need we have for any god.
In fact he has now been pushed back to at least 13.83 billion years.

Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
23. ### riverValued Senior Member

Messages:
8,484
And the more knowledge we learn from our past the more one relises that god is ...a real person .